I'd like to see Tua here... (rookie mini camp)

[GhostArmOfMarino]

6-3 as a rookie coming off a debilitating hip injury and no preseason: FACT

Win loss record is entirely irrelevant to the evaluation of individual play.

We won some of those games in spite of him.

Why can't people just be fair and admit regardless of their own evaluation he has absolutely not shown one way or the other whether he's an NFL caliber QB?

 

[Soxfinatic]

You pretty clearly don’t know what facts are. For example, 2 and 3 simply are not facts. You are using your eyes to come to the conclusion that he has limited mobility. In other words...it’s your opinion.

I, in the mean time, can look at the Arizona game and come to the conclusion that you were using hallucinogens when you came to your conclusion. That would be my opinion.

Here’s what’s known as “hearsay.” It has been attributed to more than one player that Chan Gailey used a different set of plays for Tua than he did for Fitz. Was it justifiable? Probably. Fitz had played under that system and playbook far longer than Tua.

But did that directly influence those stats you just gave? It sure as hell did.

You know, in my opinion.

But here’s another fact: Tua doesn’t have to justify or prove himself to anyone on this board. The only people he has to prove himself to are Flores, Grier and Ross.

If he doesn’t, he’ll be gone sooner than later. But let’s not pretend that either of us knows any better than anyone else how this is gonna turn out.

See Goat...a very clear and concise argument. Thanks for not just saying something stupid and making excuses. However, again, you're misinterpreting what I said. I very clearly said, "one good game" should not make you excited. Yes, he played well in that game. Was it incredible? No. He played well. Nothing more or less. Is one game enough to show you that he's that guy? Because I can find those games in any rookie.

#2 - Sure, I'll concede. Besides the fact that everyone under the sun has agreed to this. I'm not huge on this. If he can be accurate, this is irrelevant. However, go look at his accuracy numbers...they were not good. His on target% was last in the league. His bad throw % at 18 was near the top. His drop % was not nearly as high as those here believe at 4%.

#3 - He has limited mobility - Now, is he Dan Marino? Not even with a fake hip. So, I give you this. Let's say this isn't fact, but mostly true. Now, last year he was pressured the third least in the league at 14% and only hurried 48 times, yet only threw away 5 balls...that's a scary number.

His limited playbook was set to give him a lot of short to intermediate throws and this is not the accuracy needed at that range to be successful. That is why I don't get excited about one game and I'm not on hallucinogens. I don't get high on one game. You are correct, he doesn't need to prove a damn thing to anyone but himself. However, fans pay his salary so, in a way, he does.

 

[Soxfinatic]

Goat, did you just send a video of Beane? You just proved my point...he's literally telling a scout that metrics don't lie. The entire basis of Moneyball is metrics. Haha. Thank you. I don't totally believe in them but at the end of most years, they tend to tell you the story.

 

[The Goat]

See Goat...a very clear and concise argument. Thanks for not just saying something stupid and making excuses. However, again, you're misinterpreting what I said. I very clearly said, "one good game" should not make you excited. Yes, he played well in that game. Was it incredible? No. He played well. Nothing more or less. Is one game enough to show you that he's that guy? Because I can find those games in any rookie.

#2 - Sure, I'll concede. Besides the fact that everyone under the sun has agreed to this. I'm not huge on this. If he can be accurate, this is irrelevant. However, go look at his accuracy numbers...they were not good. His on target% was last in the league. His bad throw % at 18 was near the top. His drop % was not nearly as high as those here believe at 4%.

#3 - He has limited mobility - Now, is he Dan Marino? Not even with a fake hip. So, I give you this. Let's say this isn't fact, but mostly true. Now, last year he was pressured the third least in the league at 14% and only hurried 48 times, yet only threw away 5 balls...that's a scary number.

His limited playbook was set to give him a lot of short to intermediate throws and this is not the accuracy needed at that range to be successful. That is why I don't get excited about one game and I'm not on hallucinogens. I don't get high on one game. You are correct, he doesn't need to prove a damn thing to anyone but himself. However, fans pay his salary so, in a way, he does.

Fans absolutely do not pay his salary.

Every NFL team got about $300 million last year from a TV contract that just escalated massively. Ticket sales are only about 20-30% of that.

 

[Soxfinatic]

as opposed to "facts" like:
holds ball too long (opinion)
not a NFL arm (opinion)
can't read defenses (opinion)
too small (opinion)

Holds ball too long - look at the metrics I posted.

I conceded on the NFL arm and I didn't say he didn't have an NFL arm. I said his arm is not strong. Read my last post. It's not a great arm...if one is accurate, which I posted the metrics on. He was not.

Struggling to read defenses has been a knock on him. I posted his numbers after 2.5 seconds.

I gave you the all time list of QB's under 6'. It's 3 of the top 20 passers ever. As I said before, he's fighting an uphill battle there because of his size. Dude, please stop twisting what I'm saying. He will need to be more dynamic because of his size.

 

[The Goat]

Goat, did you just send a video of Beane? You just proved my point...he's literally telling a scout that metrics don't lie. The entire basis of Moneyball is metrics. Haha. Thank you. I don't totally believe in them but at the end of most years, they tend to tell you the story.

That’s not what he’s telling him. He’s literally telling him he can’t predict someone’s future. Like you and I.

And if you really want to go into metrics, using a sample set of one year as a predictor is amazingly short-sighted. Using 2020 as that year is even more so.

 

[rent this space]

See Goat...a very clear and concise argument. Thanks for not just saying something stupid and making excuses. However, again, you're misinterpreting what I said. I very clearly said, "one good game" should not make you excited. Yes, he played well in that game. Was it incredible? No. He played well. Nothing more or less. Is one game enough to show you that he's that guy? Because I can find those games in any rookie.

#2 - Sure, I'll concede. Besides the fact that everyone under the sun has agreed to this. I'm not huge on this. If he can be accurate, this is irrelevant. However, go look at his accuracy numbers...they were not good. His on target% was last in the league. His bad throw % at 18 was near the top. His drop % was not nearly as high as those here believe at 4%.

#3 - He has limited mobility - Now, is he Dan Marino? Not even with a fake hip. So, I give you this. Let's say this isn't fact, but mostly true. Now, last year he was pressured the third least in the league at 14% and only hurried 48 times, yet only threw away 5 balls...that's a scary number.

His limited playbook was set to give him a lot of short to intermediate throws and this is not the accuracy needed at that range to be successful. That is why I don't get excited about one game and I'm not on hallucinogens. I don't get high on one game. You are correct, he doesn't need to prove a damn thing to anyone but himself. However, fans pay his salary so, in a way, he does.

I found this:
"...With this in mind, we should have high hopes for Miami Dolphins quarterback Tua Tagovailoa in 2021. He posted a 7.9 Accuracy Rating a year ago, the same as Aaron Rodgers and Teddy Bridgewater. He also delivered a Catchable Pass Rate of 80.3-percent in 2020. Only Rodgers and Drew Brees were better..."

Meet the Metric - Explaining PlayerProfiler's Accuracy Rating Metric

Tua Tagovailoa was a leader in Accuracy Rating in 2020, the latest of our advanced stats and metrics broken down in our Meet the Metric series.

www.playerprofiler.com

 

[Soxfinatic]

Fans absolutely do not pay his salary.

Every NFL team got about $300 million last year from a TV contract that just escalated massively. Ticket sales are only about 20-30% of that.

TV contract? I'm guessing that includes the Sunday ticket, which is puchased by how many fans? Dude, the fans pay for everything. Without fans, there is no game.

 

[GhostArmOfMarino]

I came up with a full and comprehensive list of all the positive things you have contributed:

1.
2.
3.
4.
5.

Hope I didn’t miss anything.

He makes a valid point and you attack the poster. Can I recommend this for worst post if the year?

 

[The Goat]

TV contract? I'm guessing that includes the Sunday ticket, which is puchased by how many fans? Dude, the fans pay for everything. Without fans, there is no game.

I feel you’re missing my point.

Joe from Dubuque, who is a huge Aaron Rodgers fan and couldn’t care less about anything in the AFC, has as much impact as any Miami Dolphins fan when it comes to TV contracts. Ross gets his money no matter what; it’s divvied up evenly among teams. We as Dolphins fans can like or dislike Tua all we want, but our money doesn’t make a bit of impact on his decision-making.

 

[Soxfinatic]

That’s not what he’s telling him. He’s literally telling him he can’t predict someone’s future. Like you and I.

And if you really want to go into metrics, using a sample set of one year as a predictor is amazingly short-sighted. Using 2020 as that year is even more so.

He's telling a scout nobody can predict the future. A scout who's arguing about the use of metrics as opposed to good old-fashioned scouting. Hence why he uses them because they work. You literally played a clip that is my argument. I do agree that old-fashioned scouting is very important in football, as is the eye test because the sample size is smaller.

 

[Soxfinatic]

I feel you’re missing my point.

Joe from Dubuque, who is a huge Aaron Rodgers fan and couldn’t care less about anything in the AFC, has as much impact as any Miami Dolphins fan when it comes to TV contracts. Ross gets his money no matter what; it’s divvied up evenly among teams. We as Dolphins fans can like or dislike Tua all we want, but our money doesn’t make a bit of impact on his decision-making.

I get what you're saying. I'm thinking very socialist in this sense but yes, I get it.

 

[Soxfinatic]

He makes a valid point and you attack the poster. Can I recommend this for worst post if the year?

No, because he won't make a legitimate argument or even talk be respectful for that matter. It's all good. I don't mind being the squeaky wheel. If it gets the blood boiling a bit, then it creates some fun around here for a mid-May day.

 

[rent this space]

Holds ball too long - look at the metrics I posted.

I conceded on the NFL arm and I didn't say he didn't have an NFL arm. I said his arm is not strong. Read my last post. It's not a great arm...if one is accurate, which I posted the metrics on. He was not.

Struggling to read defenses has been a knock on him. I posted his numbers after 2.5 seconds.

I gave you the all time list of QB's under 6'. It's 3 of the top 20 passers ever. As I said before, he's fighting an uphill battle there because of his size. Dude, please stop twisting what I'm saying. He will need to be more dynamic because of his size.

you said under 6'2" earlier. At any rate, here's a list of all-time great short NFL QBs, note none of them are taller than Tua and Kyler Murray, at 5'10", isn't listed

The NFL's Best Short Quarterbacks of All Time - National Football Post

The list of best short QBs is, well, short. Every decade has a couple signal callers that defy the odds and win despite a height disadvantge:

www.nationalfootballpost.com

also, here a scouting report that disagrees with much of what you say about Tua. These are just opinions like yours

2020 NFL Draft Scouting Report: Tua Tagovailoa – WalterFootball

walterfootball.com

 

[Travis34]

#3 - He has limited mobility - Now, is he Dan Marino? Not even with a fake hip. So, I give you this. Let's say this isn't fact, but mostly true. Now, last year he was pressured the third least in the league at 14% and only hurried 48 times, yet only threw away 5 balls...that's a scary number.

His limited playbook was set to ...

that kind of ‘limited’ mobility is just fine for a qb. In my opinionguess

#4 - his “limited” playbook .... aka the offense designed for Fitzpatrick