Merged: Coulda, woulda, shoulda/Drew Brees | Page 4 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

Merged: Coulda, woulda, shoulda/Drew Brees

wazzy said:
Drew Brees was so horrible when he first started playing for San Diego so it would of only been worse if he came to Miami and he would stay a 3rd stringer for the rest of his life.
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brees wasn't even that bad his first few years in the league, not sure what you're talkin bout
 
shellgh0st said:
Totally missing the point.

Simply by electing to move out of that position you have passed up on every player available at that spot. If you do it blindly or do it during your pick, it makes no difference.

Had we traded away the second pick in this draft PRIOR to the draft, it could be said we elected to pass on EVERY player available at #2. Even though we did so PRIOR to the draft.
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Doing it blindly means you're not passing up any specific player. You're passing on hypotheticals which may or may not be available. Also the players that ultimately are available might have been different if you hadn't made the trade. This would get you into some weird scifi scenario (like the butterfly effect) Under your definition there should be a thread complaining about us passing on Peyton Manning. It simply doesn't make sense to play the what if game beyond the point of whom you actually had the opportunity to pick. That's why they say 27 (or 26 whatever it was) teams passed on Marino. Why don't they say every team in the NFL passed? B/c the teams that didn't actually have the opportunity to pick him are not considered to have passed.
 
rafael said:
Doing it blindly means you're not passing up any specific player. You're passing on hypotheticals which may or may not be available. Also the players that ultimately are available might have been different if you hadn't made the trade. This would get you into some weird scifi scenario (like the butterfly effect) Under your definition there should be a thread complaining about us passing on Peyton Manning. It simply doesn't make sense to play the what if game beyond the point of whom you actually had the opportunity to pick. That's why they say 27 (or 26 whatever it was) teams passed on Marino. Why don't they say every team in the NFL passed? B/c the teams that didn't actually have the opportunity to pick him are not considered to have passed.
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No, it wouldn't suggest under my definition that we wouldve passed up on manning. Way to put words in my mouth!

Having the PICK means you have the opportunity to select AT THAT SLOT. Trading OUT means you passed on EVERYONE that WAS available at that slot.

Manning wasn't available at our spot, so that doesn't work. Moss WAS available at our spot. Get it? We just traded out PRIOR which means we passed on picking there. And passing on picking there meant passing on Moss, because he was available at that slot, however, manning was not.

Your marino point doesn't apply. Im talking about trading out of a draft slot. Not having picks AFTER guys are selected. Big difference.
 
Once again I will say:

JJ himself said had he had the pick he wouldve PASSED ON MOSS. He didn't want him.

And it was evident by him trading down.
 
shellgh0st said:
No, it wouldn't suggest under my definition that we wouldve passed up on manning. Way to put words in my mouth!

Having the PICK means you have the opportunity to select AT THAT SLOT. Trading OUT means you passed on EVERYONE that WAS available at that slot.

Manning wasn't available at our spot, so that doesn't work. Moss WAS available at our spot. Get it? We just traded out PRIOR which means we passed on picking there. And passing on picking there meant passing on Moss, because he was available at that slot, however, manning was not.

Your marino point doesn't apply. Im talking about trading out of a draft slot. Not having picks AFTER guys are selected. Big difference.
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You said earlier that we passed on going after Moss b/c we made no attempt to MOVE UP.

"No, it was accurate to say we passed on going after Moss. Had we wanted him, he was there for the taking and that is CLEAR. It is clear we didnt want him, we made no move to go after him (move up in the draft) ..."

Even if you now switch it to a new definition, it doesn't mean we passed unless you jump to the conclusions that A) the coach knew what players would be available (impossible) and B) the trade would have no affect on any other team's picks (unlikely).
 
rafael said:
You said earlier that we passed on going after Moss b/c we made no attempt to MOVE UP.

"No, it was accurate to say we passed on going after Moss. Had we wanted him, he was there for the taking and that is CLEAR. It is clear we didnt want him, we made no move to go after him (move up in the draft) ..."

Even if you now switch it to a new definition, it doesn't mean we passed unless you jump to the conclusions that A) the coach knew what players would be available (impossible) and B) the trade would have no affect on any other team's picks (unlikely).
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2 issues were raised and you are attempting to merge them into one.

1) My point is if a team trades OUT of a spot, anyone selected there was a player they have basically passed on.

Was moss available at 19? Yes! Why didnt we get him, because we traded out. The only issue here is whether WHEN we traded out changes anything. Imo, it does not. Moss wouldve been there anyway and lots of people thought this was the case.

2) ANOTHER point I made is, if a team REALLY wants a player they go after that player when they wont have to give up alot for him. That wouldve been the case with Moss. JJ had the 19th pick and most people had Moss going in that area, however, if JJ believed moss would have went earlier (around 15-16th pick where some people thought he might go) he couldve moved up for him. Not doing so proves he wasn't interested in Moss.

You have offered no facts to back up your issue, just your opinion and Ive grown tired of debating a opinion I dont really value that much. So, Im done with this thread. You can think what you want, it means nothing to me. I know how it all went down. And nothing you've said proved other wise.
 
shellgh0st said:
2 issues were raised and you are attempting to merge them into one.

1) My point is if a team trades OUT of a spot, anyone selected there was a player they have basically passed on.

Was moss available at 19? Yes! Why didnt we get him, because we traded out. The only issue here is whether WHEN we traded out changes anything. Imo, it does not. Moss wouldve been there anyway and lots of people thought this was the case.

2) ANOTHER point I made is, if a team REALLY wants a player they go after that player when they wont have to give up alot for him. That wouldve been the case with Moss. JJ had the 19th pick and most people had Moss going in that area, however, if JJ believed moss would have went earlier (around 15-16th pick where some people thought he might go) he couldve moved up for him. Not doing so proves he wasn't interested in Moss.

You have offered no facts to back up your issue, just your opinion and Ive grown tired of debating a opinion I dont really value that much. So, Im done with this thread. You can think what you want, it means nothing to me. I know how it all went down. And nothing you've said proved other wise.
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The facts I offered are that you can't KNOW if a player will or will not be there if you trade the pick prior to being on the clock. Your facts? that some others were of the opinion that a player may be available are irrelevant. I also pointed out that once trades are made the draft dynamics are changed and you can't know if the draft would have fallen the same way if the trade had not been made. The problem is you're making assumptions about things that are unknowable.
 
rafael said:
The facts I offered are that you can't KNOW if a player will or will not be there if you trade the pick prior to being on the clock. Your facts? that some others were of the opinion that a player may be available are irrelevant. I also pointed out that once trades are made the draft dynamics are changed and you can't know if the draft would have fallen the same way if the trade had not been made. The problem is you're making assumptions about things that are unknowable.
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Moss being avaliable AFTER the trade proves your facts misguided and wrong. That was REALITY. Not knowing the what ifs is your opinion. Reality is he was available there.

You think Moss wouldnt have been available if we didnt trade out? Prove that. I dont see that being the case, because GB who traded into our spot was just as likely to take moss as anyone else.

Fact: Moss was dropping stock and many people projected him as a mid first round pick or later based on what they've been hearing from the FOs around the league.

Fact: JJ said he wouldnt have even taken moss had he stayed at 19.

Fact: Moss was there to be taken and NOTHING youve said proves he wouldnt have been there otherwise.

Was it clear that moss was dropping? Yes.

Was it clear that a team picking around 20 could make a play for him? Yes.

Its not a matter of my opinion, its a matter of HOW IT PLAYED OUT. The reality is, he was taken 21st overall. Thats a fact, not speculation, not your opinion 'he may not have been there if we didnt make a trade'
which equals to lame speculation that relies on opinion and no real facts.

keep spinning your opinion if you want.
 
shellgh0st said:
Moss being avaliable AFTER the trade proves your facts misguided and wrong. That was REALITY. Not knowing the what ifs is your opinion. Reality is he was available there.

You think Moss wouldnt have been available if we didnt trade out? Prove that. I dont see that being the case, because GB who traded into our spot was just as likely to take moss as anyone else.

Fact: Moss was dropping stock and many people projected him as a mid first round pick or later based on what they've been hearing from the FOs around the league.

Fact: JJ said he wouldnt have even taken moss had he stayed at 19.

Fact: Moss was there to be taken and NOTHING youve said proves he wouldnt have been there otherwise.

Was it clear that moss was dropping? Yes.

Was it clear that a team picking around 20 could make a play for him? Yes.

Its not a matter of my opinion, its a matter of HOW IT PLAYED OUT. The reality is, he was taken 21st overall. Thats a fact, not speculation, not your opinion 'he may not have been there if we didnt make a trade'
which equals to lame speculation that relies on opinion and no real facts.

keep spinning your opinion if you want.
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I'm not spinning anything b/c I have no reason to. I didn't want Moss then and I don't want him now. I would have picked Holliday at that spot. I also don't think JJ wanted Moss. Nor do I really care much for JJ so I don't want to claim he is all knowing. My point is you can't know how it would have played out if we hadn't traded the pick. Before that draft I and many people thought that Moss was exactly the kind of player that JJ would gamble on. ESPN actually said that during the broadcast. So if Miami had stayed at that pick than maybe Minn or some other team would have been motivated to trade up to that spot. Or maybe they thought we were targeting some other player and would trade up to take that guy changing the draft board even further. The point is outcomes change when you change the preceding events. So you can't just point at what happened and assume it would of happened the same way regardless of trades that were made.
 
He would have crashed and burned in our system. NO QB would have been able to succeed as Brian Griese looked like trash in our offense. Didn't llook so bad now that he is in a different system?
 
rafael said:
I'm not spinning anything b/c I have no reason to. I didn't want Moss then and I don't want him now. I would have picked Holliday at that spot. I also don't think JJ wanted Moss. Nor do I really care much for JJ so I don't want to claim he is all knowing. My point is you can't know how it would have played out if we hadn't traded the pick. Before that draft I and many people thought that Moss was exactly the kind of player that JJ would gamble on. ESPN actually said that during the broadcast. So if Miami had stayed at that pick than maybe Minn or some other team would have been motivated to trade up to that spot. Or maybe they thought we were targeting some other player and would trade up to take that guy changing the draft board even further. The point is outcomes change when you change the preceding events. So you can't just point at what happened and assume it would of happened the same way regardless of trades that were made.
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Like i said, that theory doesnt fly because GB was just as likely to take Moss and had similar needs to ours and that didn't motivate any team to trade up above them.

Minn said they wouldnt have traded up for Moss, however, he was worth it at 21st. They were prepared to take someone else, but with moss being there they figured he was the best vaule.

No facts to back up your claim that our staying at 19 wouldve changed the first 18 picks.
 
I couldnt agree more. All I said that started this whole thing was "No, it was clear that Moss was falling to around our pick the night prior to the draft day trade JJ made."

I gave links and facts that backed up my claim and people are still trying to spin BS.
 
Drew Brees would have been out of the NFL quickly. He started out really bad in San Diego, a team that actually has a coach. Imagine what Wanny could have done with Brees...
 
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