MERGED:ESPN reporting the Dolphins are trying to clear cap space for Simon | Page 11 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

MERGED:ESPN reporting the Dolphins are trying to clear cap space for Simon

MadLib said:
Simon would be a HUGE upgrade to our defense as a whole, and even though I dont agree with the top 5 comment, I think it automatically makes our secondary significantly better with all the pressure we will be putting up front. I'd say we have a great chance at being top ten with the addition of Corey Simon.
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Well, we were 8th overall in D last year, granted our secondary is weaker. On the flipside though I think we've definitely upgraded at LB and along the Dline . We also have a better defense scheme now imo.
 
BlueFin said:
But, if you recognize how much Saban was able to accomplish in one draft and off-season why would you doubt he can do the same next year?
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Saban did an incredible job this offseason. He was handed a bucket-o-crap and he turned it into a sandwich. However it isnt a steak yet.

I think at the rate and the progress made in this offseason, this team will be back to a contender in 2 years. I dont think so at all this year. I think we will be competitive because of our defense, but our offense will hold us back.

In 2007 however, Saban should start filling in the holes in the defense with more permanent players, not 1 year fill ins. The offense will finally be set (hopefully) We will have a very young Oline, young RB corps, and still a very young WR corps. In 2008 I expect us to contend for the AFC once the offense gels for 2 years and the defense is filled with younger, more permanent backups.

The state of this team was not a 1 year fix it job. We will see by the end of this year. Im prediciting a 6 to 8 win season.
 
I think its great that we might get another good dlinmen but you know what bothers me more than anything? The fact that Saban keeps upgrading the defense while our QB position is still NULL.

I mean when are we going to sign a GOOD, not could be good, kind of ok, or decent backup QB??? Just boggles my mind, we could have the best defense in the league but it wont mean sh@t if we dont have at least an average offense and a qb to throw the ball with.

I think Couch would be a better signing then Simon, he'll cost a lot less and he wants to prove himself, Simon's going to ask for too much money and we dont really NEED another good DT.
 
Philter25 said:
Saban did an incredible job this offseason. He was handed a bucket-o-crap and he turned it into a sandwich. However it isnt a steak yet.

I think at the rate and the progress made in this offseason, this team will be back to a contender in 2 years. I dont think so at all this year. I think we will be competitive because of our defense, but our offense will hold us back.

In 2007 however, Saban should start filling in the holes in the defense with more permanent players, not 1 year fill ins. The offense will finally be set (hopefully) We will have a very young Oline, young RB corps, and still a very young WR corps. In 2008 I expect us to contend for the AFC once the offense gels for 2 years and the defense is filled with younger, more permanent backups.

The state of this team was not a 1 year fix it job. We will see by the end of this year. Im prediciting a 6 to 8 win season.
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I don't disagree with your projection for this year, but I do think another Saban/Mueller draft and off-season will produce a team ready to make noise in 2006.
 
Philter25 said:
As being a huge Eagles fan, I do rave about Simon. He is an excellent player and is not a turd at all. He is a great Dlineman but there is a reason Philly let him go.

Hollis Thomas, one of my fav Eagles, is on the local station every week. He is good friends with Simon and every, EVERY, single player on the eagles thought Simon would sign and return to Philly. He stated he wanted to be in Philly and he wanted a long term deal for job security.

You are also correct, he didnt want to be traded so although the Eagles agreed on compensation with the Ravens, simon wouldnt agree on a contract so the trade couldnt go through.

And you are right, it is a financial issue. The Eagles drafted Patterson because they see a position which they need to address in the next upcoming years, and they develop a player for that position before the position is in need. Philadelphia also has one of the best talent to cost evaluators in the NFL. They NEVER overpay for a player.

Also, Simon's agent and Simon are denying the contract that Philly offered Simon because they felt that Simon got screwed by Philly. Simon was released towards the end of preseason and it made it harder for Simon to find a team. Teams that normally would have been interested in Simon might not be because of cap implications now.

Also, Philly made public Simon's deal before they released him to be a UFA. Why now, thats hes a UFA is Simon and his agent denying the offer? hmmmmmm.

They are denying the offer Philly made because they are mad, they didnt see him being released. Every Eagle thought he would be re-signed and Simon though so also. When the Eagles took off the tag it took everyone in Philly as a suprise. Even the writers who are on the eagles board didnt see it coming. Simon was holding out and asking for too much money and the Eagles screwed him over by releasing him as late into the preseason as they did.

It was a good move by Philly's front office. He wasnt worth what he was asking and they never overpay for talent.

Thats why it sickens me when my other fav team, the fins here, want to just overpay for him. Look at all Philly's moves over the past 4 years, their draft picks, their trades, their signings and releases. I cant find a single bad move and everything else has been excellent and pure genius.
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First off, you have to make sure that we keep our logic straight. I say that when Simon and his agent deny that the Eagles' offer was actually 5 years, $34 million, with a $10 million signing bonus, that they are telling the truth...the team is the one lying about the terms in order to justify their release of Simon.

You say, on the other hand, that the Eagles did actually offer that much money, and Simon rejected it, and now that they've released him late in the preseason and Simon knows he can't get a 5 year, $34 million contract with a $10 million signing bonus, that is why he is denying the terms now, and also because he's angry at the team.

You have to realize that this assertion conflicts strongly with your notion that the Eagles do not make mistakes and it would be a mistake for the Dolphins to go ahead and pay Simon the money that the Eagles were not willing to pay. Merely by asserting that Simon and his agent are the ones lying about the terms they rejected, you acknowledge that Simon's price tag has fallen below the price that the Eagles OFFERED TO PAY him. Keep in mind if the Eagle's offered it, that is what they thought he was worth. And now, the Dolphins are going to get him at a price CHEAPER, than what the Eagles offered Simon, and all the sudden this is an example of the Dolphins doing what the Eagles were not willing to do?

I'm sorry man, but I think you need to reserve judgement on the wisdom of the Dolphins to sign Simon, and the wisdom of the Eagles to let him go, until Simon signs that contract and we see what the terms of the deal are...because the two conclusions are mutually exclusive. The Dolphins can't be criticized by you for signing Simon to terms that were below what the Eagles offered Simon and got rejected, while the Eagles are smart and do not make mistakes. If the Dolphins sign Simon for less than what the Eagles offered him, obviously the Dolphins got themselves the better end of the deal vs. the Eagles because they got Simon at a better price tag than the Eagles tried to get him for.
 
i think bringing him in would be a key addition. we could get ride of thompson, and feeley to free up some space and maybe trade gordon for a draft pick, but cutting howard is out of the question because of the depth
 
ckparrothead said:
First off, you have to make sure that we keep our logic straight. I say that when Simon and his agent deny that the Eagles' offer was actually 5 years, $34 million, with a $10 million signing bonus, that they are telling the truth...the team is the one lying about the terms in order to justify their release of Simon.

You say, on the other hand, that the Eagles did actually offer that much money, and Simon rejected it, and now that they've released him late in the preseason and Simon knows he can't get a 5 year, $34 million contract with a $10 million signing bonus, that is why he is denying the terms now, and also because he's angry at the team.

You have to realize that this assertion conflicts strongly with your notion that the Eagles do not make mistakes and it would be a mistake for the Dolphins to go ahead and pay Simon the money that the Eagles were not willing to pay. Merely by asserting that Simon and his agent are the ones lying about the terms they rejected, you acknowledge that Simon's price tag has fallen below the price that the Eagles OFFERED TO PAY him. Keep in mind if the Eagle's offered it, that is what they thought he was worth. And now, the Dolphins are going to get him at a price CHEAPER, than what the Eagles offered Simon, and all the sudden this is an example of the Dolphins doing what the Eagles were not willing to do?

I'm sorry man, but I think you need to reserve judgement on the wisdom of the Dolphins to sign Simon, and the wisdom of the Eagles to let him go, until Simon signs that contract and we see what the terms of the deal are...because the two conclusions are mutually exclusive. The Dolphins can't be criticized by you for signing Simon to terms that were below what the Eagles offered Simon and got rejected, while the Eagles are smart for letting Simon go. The logic doesn't work.
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From what I have read from Philly insiders, that is what the Eagles did offer him. However I dont know the structure of the contract and that could very well be why Simon rejected it. I only know the overall value of it. It could have been very backloaded over the last 2 years, which I do assume.

Philly drafted Patterson so it makes sense for them to offer Simon a backloaded contract so they didnt need to keep him for the full 5 years and can keep him until Patterson is ready to move over.

Simon's asking price per his Baltimore negotiations was much higher than that and he wanted more money out of Philadelphia.

Simon and his agent are now stating that Philly never offered him a contract of that value after Philly let him go very late in the preseason and took back the franchise tag.

Let me again state that I am not against Corey Simon. He was a great player in Philadelphia and I would have loved for them to resign him. HOWEVER, I am very against Miami signing him for the value that he was asking for when he was being shopped around.

I would have no problem with Simon coming in under something similar we paid Kevin Carter. However I do have a problem with us overpaying him what Philly offered him because I feel he would not be worth that type of money. If the fins signed him to that, I would have no problem. What I would have a problem with is us paying more than what Philly offered, and so far that has been what Simon was looking for in Baltimore.

Simon although admitted his asking price was intentionally high in Baltimore because he didnt want to be traded and wanted to resign with Philly.

Therefore Im not really for or against him until I find out what he is looking to get. My initial instinct was it would be something in the mean of what Philly and Baltimore were offering, which would be overpaying IMO.

However if he signs for Kevin Carter money, then I would be happy to have him here.

Also, the time Simon is released, he might need to sign an undervalued contract because the need for him IMO would have changed drastically from the start of the offseason til the final preseason game. This is why there is a lot of talk on the philly boards and in the Philly media that Philly abused the franchise tag and once they knew he was not going to sign their long term offer, they held on to it a little longer to make sure they made it harder for Simon to sign with another team.

I will go back to my cost/production thing. If he is signed to something similar to what Carter has, its essentially not a 5 year contract. It would basically be something to get us through the next 3-4 years and give our rookies more time to develop. However if he gets the contract which he wanted, he will be paid top dollar for the next 5-6 years and thats too long IMO to waste away the potential in Wright or Vickerson and make drafting them a complete waste.

We drafted Wright knowing he was a 2-3 year project so realistically we need a DT for 3 years IF Wright is going to pan out.
 
ckparrothead said:
First off, you have to make sure that we keep our logic straight. I say that when Simon and his agent deny that the Eagles' offer was actually 5 years, $34 million, with a $10 million signing bonus, that they are telling the truth...the team is the one lying about the terms in order to justify their release of Simon.

You say, on the other hand, that the Eagles did actually offer that much money, and Simon rejected it, and now that they've released him late in the preseason and Simon knows he can't get a 5 year, $34 million contract with a $10 million signing bonus, that is why he is denying the terms now, and also because he's angry at the team.

You have to realize that this assertion conflicts strongly with your notion that the Eagles do not make mistakes and it would be a mistake for the Dolphins to go ahead and pay Simon the money that the Eagles were not willing to pay. Merely by asserting that Simon and his agent are the ones lying about the terms they rejected, you acknowledge that Simon's price tag has fallen below the price that the Eagles OFFERED TO PAY him. Keep in mind if the Eagle's offered it, that is what they thought he was worth. And now, the Dolphins are going to get him at a price CHEAPER, than what the Eagles offered Simon, and all the sudden this is an example of the Dolphins doing what the Eagles were not willing to do?

I'm sorry man, but I think you need to reserve judgement on the wisdom of the Dolphins to sign Simon, and the wisdom of the Eagles to let him go, until Simon signs that contract and we see what the terms of the deal are...because the two conclusions are mutually exclusive. The Dolphins can't be criticized by you for signing Simon to terms that were below what the Eagles offered Simon and got rejected, while the Eagles are smart and do not make mistakes. If the Dolphins sign Simon for less than what the Eagles offered him, obviously the Dolphins got themselves the better end of the deal vs. the Eagles because they got Simon at a better price tag than the Eagles tried to get him for.
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Dude, try to find a player that left the Eagles after they became good and is still having success or greater success than they had in philly.

Thrash - WR starter in philly, leaves and does nothing.

Staley - RB lots of production in philly, leaves and doesn't do anything with the steelers.

Trotter - MLB pro bowler in philly, leaves and is a bust in washington, comes back and is a pro bowl player again.

Vincent - CB pro bowl player in philly, Im not sure how he has been doing, but I will take a guess that he isn't making pro bowls now.

Taylor - CB pro bowl player in philly, not doing well now, I believe he is a FA.

damn, this judging of talent goes back YEARS in philly, remember William Thomas, very good OLB, didn't do much after he left philly.

These guys know their team and their talent very well. They do not let guys walk that will become GREAT players for other teams. The only player I think they let go that did well else where is C. Garner, but, that was in Reid first year.

All signs point to whomever over pays for Simon, will get burned. How badly they get burned is the question. I just dont see him putting up 10+ sacks and making pro bowls.
 
BlueFin said:
McIntosh was injured in San Diego, he is just now 100% again and has played very well this pre-season. We have two other draft picks from last years draft that are starting and playing very well, along with Jeno James who started on Carolina's Superbowl team.

This unit is new playng together but it does have talent and it will gel before this year is out under the fine tutelege of Hudson Houck......but, you'll find out for yourself December 11th when Ricky and Ronnie run wild on your Chargers.
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Is this where we insert "Mr. Guaranteed False Start" is having that problem because he is injured? Look man, I hope he does well for you guys, but from what Ive seen when he was healthy, and injured, he didnt play too well. Maybe he has changed, if Hudson didnt see the potential in him back then, why now?

Im curious to hear your opinion on that article regading some players not buying into HH schemes. I didnt read the article, just heard about it. What was that all about?

Ricky and Ronnie runs wild on the Chargers--WONDERFUL! Please make sure the strategy against our front 7 is to run against it, I WOULD LOVE THAT! :)
 
Let me again state that I am not against Corey Simon. He was a great player in Philadelphia and I would have loved for them to resign him. HOWEVER, I am very against Miami signing him for the value that he was asking for when he was being shopped around.
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I guess what I'm saying then is that the mere fact that Simon is denying that the terms of the deal he rejected from Philly are what Philly says they are, is a direct admission that his price tag has fallen below that high water mark.

And, if you're saying the Eagles don't make mistakes, then it can't be a mistake for the Dolphins to sign him to a contract worth less than what the Eagles were willing to pay him.

By the way, Troy Vincent is pretty good...still. He's old, and the reason the Eagles have seemingly let a lot of guys go that don't do well elsewhere is because of their policy of releasing guys a year or two before they begin their slide from greatness. Merely changing teams and schemes can result in a loss of production if the scheme is not compatible. Jeremiah Trotter is a perfect example. Nate Wayne and William Thomas are also good examples.

It would be up to Saban to judge whether his scheme is compatible with Simon. He's a very, very good player. And, I suspect that in Jim Johnson's defense, his lynch pin is the middle of the D, much like Belichick's and Crennel's. The production trickles out from the middle. Darwin Walker, Corey Simon, Jeremiah Trotter, Brian Dawkins, and Michael Lewis are the REAL important cogs on that defense.

BTW you forgot Hugh Douglass, shellgh0st, in that list of guys who left the Eagles and couldn't get to the same level elsewhere. I believe Simon is one of those guys that has been there the whole time during all that and he may have been one of the key cogs that allowed the edge players (corners, defensive ends, outside linebackers) to excel in the scheme.
 
If i may...

could we please stop salivating over every potential free agent that comes available? they are left available for a reason.... and that reason is NOT in order to make the Dolphins better...

a good friend of mine is a big eagles fan, and he says good luck... Simon is going to demand a $10M signing bonus... he's held out twice in five years for more money.... in his four years he's missed a lot of time... he entered camp way overweight last season after holding out, which led to a nagging foot problem all year... reports are that he's fat again this summer, and hasn't played a down in the preseason...

the eagles had him traded to Buffalo and Baltimore, all worked out, but neither team could reach a long-term deal with Simon... which drove the Eagles to the point of releasing him.... much the same as they did with Jeremiah Trotter in '02... it's bad business to just gobble up all these castoffs... he's a fine player, but at what cost?

as i railed in another thread, when do we start spending money on areas of NEED, such as O-Line and CB (and please don't bring up McDougle or Middleton)... and finally say enough is enough with our 15 defensive linemen, of which we'll only be needing three at a time with the new 3-4 scheme...hello?
 
PressCoverage said:
as i railed in another thread, when do we start spending money on areas of NEED, such as O-Line and CB (and please don't bring up McDougle or Middleton)... and finally say enough is enough with our 15 defensive linemen, of which we'll only be needing three at a time with the new 3-4 scheme...hello?
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DING DING DING DING!!! WINNER! WINNER WINNER!!!

As said:

Originally Posted by L.T.21
Hmm..interesting...IMHO- WHY? Besides possibility of cap hell, WHY? Apologies for not knowing your cap situation, but this guy will demand some $$$, even if he does re-structure. Also, from what Ive heard / read about Simon, he was a "product of the system" I HATE THAT WORD, but that is what ive heard..


Let me ask you this...You bring in Simon, but isnt the defensive line ALREADY a strength? Does bringing Simon in help the O-line?

This would be weird, and once again thats IMHO.

As I always say, you dont strengthen the position your strong at...you address the positions that are WEAK!
 
ckparrothead said:
I guess what I'm saying then is that the mere fact that Simon is denying that the terms of the deal he rejected from Philly are what Philly says they are, is a direct admission that his price tag has fallen below that high water mark.

And, if you're saying the Eagles don't make mistakes, then it can't be a mistake for the Dolphins to sign him to a contract worth less than what the Eagles were willing to pay him.
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I see what you are getting at, however, like I said, I dont know how the deal was structured and that could very well be why Simon didnt accept it.

Philly could have offered him a "Kevin Carter" deal. I will use Carter so I can relate to everyone here. When Carter was signed, we had about 100 people screaming at the signing because they just saw the bottom number. They didnt see how it was structured. Although it was a 5 year deal, realistically its a 3 year deal because of how it was structured with his salary. For those other than CK reading this who dont know what im talking about:
http://www.nflpa.org/Members/playerProfile.asp?ID=22526

If you think Kevin Carter will see that 3.8 million pay when he is in his mid 30s then you are strongly mistaken.

If Simon signs something similar to the structure of Carter, I would love to have him here and he would be a solid addition.

Again, I dont know what the actual parameters of the contract Philly offered him were, we just know the "overall" value. And as you know as well as I do, the overall value of the contract can be VERY misleading.

The reason I think Simon is denying the offer Philly made him is because he wanted to stay in Philly and wanted to resign with Philly. He wanted more money than Philly was willing to offer him and although Philly might have offered him that contract, it could have been backloaded so to Corey Simon, that 5 year 34 million dollar deal could look like a 2-3 year 15 million deal.

Also I think he might feel he got taken advantage of by Philly's FO by letting him stay under the franchise tag for so long before releasing him and this could be his way of attempting to get back at them.

Both sides could very well be telling the truth...

And I stand by my statement that the Eagles dont make mistakes and dont overpay for players. They have proven it year after year after year after year to show they make the right decision. If Miami signs him for a contract under what Philly offered him, I would be happy and would welcome here.

However I am basing his asking price as a mean between what he asked Baltimore and what Philly offered him...... that is my assumption which I established from the philly boards, and at that rate I would not want to see him here in Miami taking that much cap room when we already have players like JT, ZT, SM, Howard, and AJ taking up a good chunk of our cap next year.
 
PressCoverage said:
If i may...

could we please stop salivating over every potential free agent that comes available? they are left available for a reason.... and that reason is NOT in order to make the Dolphins better...

a good friend of mine is a big eagles fan, and he says good luck... Simon is going to demand a $10M signing bonus... he's held out twice in five years for more money.... in his four years he's missed a lot of time... he entered camp way overweight last season after holding out, which led to a nagging foot problem all year... reports are that he's fat again this summer, and hasn't played a down in the preseason...

the eagles had him traded to Buffalo and Baltimore, all worked out, but neither team could reach a long-term deal with Simon... which drove the Eagles to the point of releasing him.... much the same as they did with Jeremiah Trotter in '02... it's bad business to just gobble up all these castoffs... he's a fine player, but at what cost?

as i railed in another thread, when do we start spending money on areas of NEED, such as O-Line and CB (and please don't bring up McDougle or Middleton)... and finally say enough is enough with our 15 defensive linemen, of which we'll only be needing three at a time with the new 3-4 scheme...hello?
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Your friend is correct and so far thats the situation in Philly. Based on his behavior in Philly, I find it very very optomistic that we sign him for cheaper than what Philly offered him. If we do, that would be excellent, however I do have my doubts. He is a good player and most definately would be an upgrade, just based on his behavior in Philly and what he wanted contractwise, I just think its not logical to think that he will come here cheap
 
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