CrunchTime
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It was imporatant for Saban to demonstrate that he is in control and that things have changed in Miami.
Merged:Source: Peterson expected to budge/ Surtain deal close?
- Thread starter Nublar7
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Surferosa
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hunter5nc1 said:
I will be shocked if we get anything less than this years #2 and #5 for Surtain. I think a lot of people are underestimating Sabans ability here. Or maybe I just overvalue Surtain's worth. Either way, my gut feeling is that Saban is aiming for a #2 and #4, and will settle for a #2 and #5 in this years draft. KC is MUCH more desperate than we are to make this trade. Therefore, if i were in Sabans shoes (one could only wish), I would be patient and milk Peterson for everything that hes got.
hunter5nc1
Practice Squad
VanDolPhan said:
Thank you! :evil:
finsnchips
2005 FinHeaven GM League Champion!!
great news... i wonder if we could blag their 4th or 5th next year as well.
this is a team with balls... if Wanny was still around Surtain would be a Chief and we would have a 4th.
this is a team with balls... if Wanny was still around Surtain would be a Chief and we would have a 4th.
Robfinfan
Live like tomorrow is your last day!
DolphinDevil28 said:
It's nice to see us not cave in. I'm one of many glad to see a new era bein.
FinsFanForLife
Practice Squad
If we get a that 2nd we have been asking for from K.C.. I say we trade it to Seattle for Alexander and draft Smith with the # 2 pick. I really don't think either of the top 3 backs can match up with what Alaxander can do for us.
finsnchips
2005 FinHeaven GM League Champion!!
probably not next year... but alexander has 5 extra years on those rookies.FinsFanForLife said:
I'd take the shelf life of brown, benson or williams over the current ability of alexander.
PhinBeck
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DolphinDevil28 said:
Yeah it is really nice to know we have a coach that wont be bullied by other teams, wont be held hostage, and sticks to what he believes is best. It is real nice to see Saban telling teams flat out, you arent ripping us off and that if market value isnt received it is teh same as getting nothing.
Whitedolphin54 said:
Can you believe we actually had the 7th and 12th overall picks that year?? :eek: We drafted Randall Hill 23rd overall in 1991. He held out so we traded him to the Cardinals for next year's #1, which became 7th overall. Kinda like what Philly did to us this year, except better. :) And Hill became a Dolphin again in '95.
Problem is, we didn't get much longevity out of Coleman and Vincent. They were only here from '92-'95.
ckparrothead
Premium Member
Yeah looking back on the draft pick transactions that Wanny and Spielman did over the years one thing is certain. I don't think Nick Saban would have pulled the trigger on a single one of them, not at the price which was finalized.
1. David Boston was going to be released by San Diego no matter what, he'd made too many enemies on the team. Giving even a 6th rounder for him was too much when we could have easily had him as a free agent, especially once he'd made it clear the Dolphins are just about the only team he'll talk to due to Jerry Sullivan's presence.
2. I believe we gave a 4th for Junior Seau, no? When we got him he wasn't as good as Surtain currently is, he was almost as expensive, and he was way older (like 35 yrs old). Considering a 4th is the best offer we've currently got on the table for Surtain, I doubt Nick would have given it the green light.
3. A future 2nd round pick for Morlon Greenwood? Puh-leaze.
4. A future 2nd round pick for AJ Feeley? Nick might have gone with the Feeley idea, but NEVER at a 2nd round price. A lot of personnel people laughed the day that trade was announced, I guarantee it.
5. A 4th rounder for Jay Williams? I know a lot of us questioned that one when it happened, no matter HOW much of a fix we thought we were in because we decided to cut Daryl Gardener. Williams never ended up even starting.
6. A present first round pick, a future conditional 1st (1500 yds), 2nd (1200 yds), or 3rd round pick (0 yds), and a fourth rounder for Ricky Williams and a higher fourth rounder. Sorry, but when this was negotiated I said that Spielman caved in, and I stick by that statement. Jerome Bettis I believe was traded for a 1st and 4th (maybe it was a 2nd and 4th?), I think Marshall was traded for like a 2nd and 4th or maybe 2nd and 3rd, and Curtis Martin was traded straight up for a 1st and 3rd. There should never have been a condition to that agreement. It should have been 1st, future 3rd, and 4th for Ricky Williams and higher 4th straight. Putting that condition into the trade cost us a 1st round pick. Thankfully we used that higher 4th round pick to get Randy McMichael, who we may not have gotten without the higher pick.
7. A future 2nd round pick for Wade Smith. Never would have happened under Saban.
8. A 4th round pick to move from #20 to #19, to select Vernon Carey, who didn't even start. Riiiiight. I bet Saban would have been ALL over that one
I will be the first to admit that I did not call all of these moves mistakes when they happened. I, along with everyone else, was a some-time apologist for some of these moves. Particularly the Vikings trade to get Carey...which I cringe at now in retrospect. I always felt like some of these moves do seem questionable to me, but a lot of the time my aqua-colored glasses got in the way.
What we had was a systematic long-term discounting of draft picks in Miami. The results have become obvious. Miami's success was built upon a house of cards, and when you pulled one card out, the whole thing crumbled. We didn't have the depth or options to enable us to weather a storm (literally, see the Steelers game lol).
PFT may be right about this Surtain thing, however. Saban has rightfully dug in his heels over the trade, saying 2nd rounder or bust. Peterson, who is a notorious heel-digger, has also dug in his heels. They're in a staring match, but in the end, who holds all of the cards? Miami. According to PFT, who recently came across the salary cap figures of all 32 teams via their sources, Miami has a little over a million in cap room (might have changed with the Edwards signing, who knows). In other words, one small move (Mare perhaps?), and we've probably got enough money to sign our draft picks and head into the season....WITH Surtain on the roster. Then, we can use the franchise tag on him next year.
Miami has a very viable alternative to trading Surtain. Does Kansas City? They could go after Law, who wants more money than Surtain, and won't even be able to walk probably until some time in May. They could use a draft pick on a corner, but who knows of either Antrel Rolle, Pac-Man, or Carlos Rogers will be there? Pac-Man most definitely would not. Antrel's been getting a lot of looks by the top pickers in the draft, rightfully so because IMO he's the best defender in the draft, and Carlos Rogers torched the 40 and proved that he's got top speed to go with his skills. So maybe Rogers makes it to #15...but, would he help them make a super bowl run right away? Doubtful, if you ask me. Wouldn't even be worthy of starting in his first year, if you ask me. Very long learning curve for corners in the NFL.
Their best options outside Surtain are waiting out an injured veteran Ty Law (and probably picking a CB at pick #15 in the draft because of how risky it would be to wait and see with Law), or committing long-term to Andre Dyson, who is very uninspiring. Giving up a 2nd rounder for Surtain affords them the ability to use #15 on the best player they have on their board, or the one that could help them the most immediately (WR perhaps? Matt Jones, Mark Clayton, and Troy Williamson are possibilities...).
We've got two TOUGH negotiators here, so it makes sense that neither appears to be buckling. But in the end, the situation guides the outcome, because one team has more leverage than the other, and if "King Carl" does not do something adequate to help out their secondary he knows his reputation will be tarnished every time Randy Moss catches long TD on them, and there will be many times...
1. David Boston was going to be released by San Diego no matter what, he'd made too many enemies on the team. Giving even a 6th rounder for him was too much when we could have easily had him as a free agent, especially once he'd made it clear the Dolphins are just about the only team he'll talk to due to Jerry Sullivan's presence.
2. I believe we gave a 4th for Junior Seau, no? When we got him he wasn't as good as Surtain currently is, he was almost as expensive, and he was way older (like 35 yrs old). Considering a 4th is the best offer we've currently got on the table for Surtain, I doubt Nick would have given it the green light.
3. A future 2nd round pick for Morlon Greenwood? Puh-leaze.
4. A future 2nd round pick for AJ Feeley? Nick might have gone with the Feeley idea, but NEVER at a 2nd round price. A lot of personnel people laughed the day that trade was announced, I guarantee it.
5. A 4th rounder for Jay Williams? I know a lot of us questioned that one when it happened, no matter HOW much of a fix we thought we were in because we decided to cut Daryl Gardener. Williams never ended up even starting.
6. A present first round pick, a future conditional 1st (1500 yds), 2nd (1200 yds), or 3rd round pick (0 yds), and a fourth rounder for Ricky Williams and a higher fourth rounder. Sorry, but when this was negotiated I said that Spielman caved in, and I stick by that statement. Jerome Bettis I believe was traded for a 1st and 4th (maybe it was a 2nd and 4th?), I think Marshall was traded for like a 2nd and 4th or maybe 2nd and 3rd, and Curtis Martin was traded straight up for a 1st and 3rd. There should never have been a condition to that agreement. It should have been 1st, future 3rd, and 4th for Ricky Williams and higher 4th straight. Putting that condition into the trade cost us a 1st round pick. Thankfully we used that higher 4th round pick to get Randy McMichael, who we may not have gotten without the higher pick.
7. A future 2nd round pick for Wade Smith. Never would have happened under Saban.
8. A 4th round pick to move from #20 to #19, to select Vernon Carey, who didn't even start. Riiiiight. I bet Saban would have been ALL over that one
I will be the first to admit that I did not call all of these moves mistakes when they happened. I, along with everyone else, was a some-time apologist for some of these moves. Particularly the Vikings trade to get Carey...which I cringe at now in retrospect. I always felt like some of these moves do seem questionable to me, but a lot of the time my aqua-colored glasses got in the way.
What we had was a systematic long-term discounting of draft picks in Miami. The results have become obvious. Miami's success was built upon a house of cards, and when you pulled one card out, the whole thing crumbled. We didn't have the depth or options to enable us to weather a storm (literally, see the Steelers game lol).
PFT may be right about this Surtain thing, however. Saban has rightfully dug in his heels over the trade, saying 2nd rounder or bust. Peterson, who is a notorious heel-digger, has also dug in his heels. They're in a staring match, but in the end, who holds all of the cards? Miami. According to PFT, who recently came across the salary cap figures of all 32 teams via their sources, Miami has a little over a million in cap room (might have changed with the Edwards signing, who knows). In other words, one small move (Mare perhaps?), and we've probably got enough money to sign our draft picks and head into the season....WITH Surtain on the roster. Then, we can use the franchise tag on him next year.
Miami has a very viable alternative to trading Surtain. Does Kansas City? They could go after Law, who wants more money than Surtain, and won't even be able to walk probably until some time in May. They could use a draft pick on a corner, but who knows of either Antrel Rolle, Pac-Man, or Carlos Rogers will be there? Pac-Man most definitely would not. Antrel's been getting a lot of looks by the top pickers in the draft, rightfully so because IMO he's the best defender in the draft, and Carlos Rogers torched the 40 and proved that he's got top speed to go with his skills. So maybe Rogers makes it to #15...but, would he help them make a super bowl run right away? Doubtful, if you ask me. Wouldn't even be worthy of starting in his first year, if you ask me. Very long learning curve for corners in the NFL.
Their best options outside Surtain are waiting out an injured veteran Ty Law (and probably picking a CB at pick #15 in the draft because of how risky it would be to wait and see with Law), or committing long-term to Andre Dyson, who is very uninspiring. Giving up a 2nd rounder for Surtain affords them the ability to use #15 on the best player they have on their board, or the one that could help them the most immediately (WR perhaps? Matt Jones, Mark Clayton, and Troy Williamson are possibilities...).
We've got two TOUGH negotiators here, so it makes sense that neither appears to be buckling. But in the end, the situation guides the outcome, because one team has more leverage than the other, and if "King Carl" does not do something adequate to help out their secondary he knows his reputation will be tarnished every time Randy Moss catches long TD on them, and there will be many times...
Dolfan2788 said:
DV and Saunders love their offense. Kris Wilson is probably the best pick out of those four. He is being groomed to be more of an h-back rather then just a pure TE. He isn't meant to be a replacement or anything for Gonz. Most of the time both of them will be out on the field at the same time. He will be able to line up at FB, TE, and very rarely at WR. KC already uses a lot of two TE sets and I-formations so he should fit. He looked really good in the preseason last year, but broke his hip and was out for the rest of the year.
ckparrothead
Premium Member
I dont know much of Kris Wilson, so I'll respect your opinion on the matter, however for a 2nd round pick TE/H-Back, I would say the team has to at least be a LITTLE disappointed that David Dunn is enough better than him that Dunn is the one getting the snaps in 2-TE sets and is catching the TE touchdowns that Gonzales is not.