Most underrated/overrated players on team and league

[DolphinDevil28]

Yeah, I'm not going to give you the satisfaction of putting that homer label on me by saying JP in that obvious booby trap of a question.

You may not believe me, but that was not my intentions at all.

I really wanted to see what your assesment of Mike Vick was. If you would not have answered Vick, I would not have sounded the "homer" alarm.

Because, as big of a Dolfan as I am, (and you would be HARD pressed to find a bigger one than me,) I admit, JP has loads of potential.

...But I'd still take Vick in a N.Y. milisecond before him.

 

[Wagon Circler]

You may not believe me, but that was not my intentions at all.

I really wanted to see what your assesment of Mike Vick was. If you would not have answered Vick, I would not have sounded the "homer" alarm.

Because, as big of a Dolfan as I am, (and you would be HARD pressed to find a bigger one than me,) I admit, JP has loads of potential.

...But I'd still take Vick in a N.Y. milisecond before him.

It's all good. I forgot a at the end of that last post.

 

[ricky williams]

There are only so many ways I can vehemently object to your analysis of Dan Marino. I will try to educate you as much as I can...



Stats do not mean everything but when you hold EVERY MAJOR Q.B. record known to man they do say something about the quality of the man and the player. You talk about the man like he was a scrub.



He DID never have talent around him. Lets review this alledged "talent".

The "prime" of Dan's career was 1983 - 1995. During this time:

The most yards rushing a player had was 915 by Mark Higgs in 1992. During a 13 year span they had ZERO 1,000 yard rushers.

The average ranking of the Dolphins rushing offense during this span of time was 21st out of 28 teams.

On defense the average ranking of the team was 17th.

In the same 13 year span the Dolphins had a total of 13 Pro Bowl appearences by defensive players. An average of 1 per season.

By way of comparison the Tampa Bay Bucs during the same span of time (13 years) averaged a ranking of 17th in total defense...they averaged 5 wins a season during that 13 years.

I tend to argue that WITHOUT Dan and the Mark's Brothers we would have been closer to the Tampa's of the world rather then being a potential playoff team every year.



We were preseason favorites? I agree we were preseason favorites a few times '84 (we went to the Super Bowl), '85 (lost the AFC title game), '93 (Dan got hurt) and '95 (the team imploded with selfishness).

Saying we were "perennial" favorites is laughable. For about 8 years of Dan's career the Bills were the team to beat in the AFC. During that time the Dolphins had NOTHING on defense and no running game to speak of.

I'll say it for the 340530th time....a team with no defense and no running game has no chance.

As far as that "outstanding" protection, that is more of a mirage then anything. Dan's quick release probably avoided about 20 sacks a season.

If our O-line's were so good then why did the Dolphins rank an average of 21st in the league rushing the football?



Was'nt great in critical times or in the 4th quarter?

[size=-1]In his 17 years he brought the team back from a fourth quarter deficit a total of 37 times, with 21 fourth quarter triumphs at home and 16 on the road. Included were three playoff games in which Marino led Miami back in the fourth quarter.

If you include 13 fourth-quarter situations in which the game was tied and Dan lead them to a win, then Marino led the Dolphins on a total of 50 game-winning drives.

Marino ranks second in 4th quarter comeback victories behind Elway's 43. 2nd all time...what was your point again?

In Marino’s 37 career fourth quarter comebacks, he completed 63.5% of his passes for 3,710 yards with 29 touchdowns and eight INTs with a 4th quarter Q.B.rating of 104.


[/size]

There have been a grand total of 2 of your example situations (Elway and Montana). Saying that guy is not clutch because he has'nt done something that has been done twice in the history of the sport is an absurd level to hold someone to.



You have the right to your opinion. You bring specualtion and "what if's" and I brought FACTS.

To say that Dan was "overrated" and "not clutch" is false...but you have the right to your opinion...even if it is DEAD WRONG.

To say that he is "Top 20 and not Top 5" is absurd. Give me a list of who ranks ahead of him historically.

the stat thing: most will agree that dan's offense was taylor made for qb stat's in a time before 4 wr sets. all his records will be broken

runningback thing: if he could play action pass better or didn't audible out of so many running situations which don alowed then yes, they could have had a running game. he was partly responsible for this horrible stat. do you remember what a dan play action pass looked like. it was laughable.

defense: when u decide ur going to have a passing offense that throw as much as the dolphins did, ur defense is going to suffer because they are on the field to long. the same thing is happening w/ most of the pass happy offences of today. name me a team that throws it a ton and has a great defense

and still no late season heroics or playoff gifts. he was average in the playoffs. if you call leading them back getting them to the 50 yard line and having stoy hit a 51 yarder.

 

[DolphinDevil28]

It's all good. I forgot a at the end of that last post.

Cool.

by the way, I think the Fins and Bills are going to battle it out for a wild card in the east this year.

They are similar teams.

I think the Jets stink. I don't like their karma at all going into this year.

 

[BillsChamps2oo5]

the stat thing: most will agree that dan's offense was taylor made for qb stat's in a time before 4 wr sets. all his records will be broken

runningback thing: if he could play action pass better or didn't audible out of so many running situations which don alowed then yes, they could have had a running game. he was partly responsible for this horrible stat. do you remember what a dan play action pass looked like. it was laughable.

defense: when u decide ur going to have a passing offense that throw as much as the dolphins did, ur defense is going to suffer because they are on the field to long. the same thing is happening w/ most of the pass happy offences of today. name me a team that throws it a ton and has a great defense

and still no late season heroics or playoff gifts. he was average in the playoffs. if you call leading them back getting them to the 50 yard line and having stoy hit a 51 yarder.

I agree.

Like I said earlier. Was it the Team that couldnt run or was it Marino that didnt want to run? Marino wanted to win it all on his arm not because of some RB.

John Elway figured out he wasnt going to win because of his arm, and the Broncos went to a run based offense.

 

[Wagon Circler]

Cool.

by the way, I think the Fins and Bills are going to battle it out for a wild card in the east this year.

They are similar teams.

I think the Jets stink. I don't like their karma at all going into this year.

I actually think there is a decent chance that three, yes three, teams from the AFCE can make the playoffs.

 

[DolphinDevil28]

I agree.

Like I said earlier. Was it the Team that couldnt run or was it Marino that didnt want to run? Marino wanted to win it all on his arm not because of some RB.

John Elway figured out he wasnt going to win because of his arm, and the Broncos went to a run based offense.

Please.

You could roll all the Dolphins running backs in their team history into one RB, and they still would not equal Terrell Davis.

...Not to mention the Donkey's offensive line...

I'm not a homer when it comes to my Fins. They sucked last year, and who knows what they'll do this year.

...but, one thing you will NEVER convince me of...Is that Dan Marino was not the best QB of all time.

There will never be another like him. Dan WAS the best of ALL time.

 

[Wagon Circler]

Please.

You could roll all the Dolphins running backs in their team history into one RB, and they still would not equal Terrell Davis.

...Not to mention the Donkey's offensive line...

I'm not a homer when it comes to my Fins. They sucked last year, and who knows what they'll do this year.

...but, one thing you will NEVER convince me of...Is that Dan Marino was not the best QB of all time.

There will never be another like him. Dan WAS the best of ALL time.

Ooooh, that's a whole 'nother thread.

 

[Crisis]

Vick is THE most overrated player in NFL history.

Don't get me wrong, he's a good player. But the media is so over his jock-strap its ridiculous. People talk about him like he's the greatest QB since Montana. All he is is a RB playing QB, with a strong arm but no accuracy. He gets happy feet, gets sacked ALOT, and fumbles alot. He's not gonna last long with his style of play.

Vick is hyped up because he's the only QB that can break off 40 yd runs consistently, while the other QBs are efficient in the passing game, Vick is NOT.

 

[DolphinDevil28]

Ooooh, that's a whole 'nother thread.

I know, but you don't blast on Dan the Man like that around me. :fire:



Jim Kelly was awesome, but he had his time LAST year.

This is Dan's time. We should all relish in his accomplishments a month prior to when he gets enshrined into the hall of fame.

 

[BillsChamps2oo5]

Please.

You could roll all the Dolphins running backs in their team history into one RB, and they still would not equal Terrell Davis.

...Not to mention the Donkey's offensive line...

I'm not a homer when it comes to my Fins. They sucked last year, and who knows what they'll do this year.

...but, one thing you will NEVER convince me of...Is that Dan Marino was not the best QB of all time.

There will never be another like him. Dan WAS the best of ALL time.

He wasnt the Best of all time. Elway was.

Marino is behind Elway, Montana, and Unitas atleast.

 

[BillsChamps2oo5]

Vick is THE most overrated player in NFL history.

Don't get me wrong, he's a good player. But the media is so over his jock-strap its ridiculous.

Someone should warn the Media!!

 

[DolphinDevil28]

He wasnt the Best of all time. Elway was.

Marino is behind Elway, Montana, and Unitas atleast.

Differing opinions.

That's fine.

...at least you didn't mention Kelly in front of Dan. J/K.

 

[BillsChamps2oo5]

Differing opinions.

That's fine.

...at least you didn't mention Kelly in front of Dan. J/K.

I love Kelly, but I saw the SuperBowls.

 

[unifiedtheory]

Your right though, he had no RB's or great talent around him.

Man, Looking back at Miami's drafts, they have to be the worst judge of RB talent in the history of the NFL.

I feel bad for Ronnie Brown already.

You think the running back chocies were bad take a look at the defensive players Don Shula drafted from '84 - '95...that is a true horror show.