Official Red Sox '05 thread

[FaninPatsyLand]

As a matter of fact, we should have never got rid of Nomar.

I think we had to get rid of Nomar. He is never going to be the same player after Al "burn in h*ll" Reyes drilled him in the wrist. Before that incident you could have made a case he was the best pure hitter in baseball. After that he was never the same.. you could get him out in big situations, whereas before he hurt his wrist you couldn't have.

I don't think we win the WS with Nomar. It pains me to say it, cause I love the guy and I always will, but something had to be done. He couldn't handle the media in Boston. He took it all too personally, that's why I think it was best for both sides to move on.

Now that's over... I wish him the best of luck, and I'll be rooting for him. He'll have a great year with the Cubs, which is why he is on my fantasy team. But he will never hit .372 again. He isn't THAT good anymore.

 

[MikeO]

How about trading a Boston icon in Nomar Garciaparra for two under appreciated players in Orlando Cabrerra and Doug Mientkiewicz? I seem to remember that working out pretty well...:shakeno:

Neither one of those guys WON you a championship. That championship was brought to you on the backs of Schilling, Pedro, Manny, Ortiz, and Damon. And 4 of those guys Theo had nothing to do with being in Boston.

 

[MikeO]

As far as not keeping those players and trading away a good prospect. Doesn't matter, the ultimate goal was achieved, we won the WS. I don't think many people around New England are going to care if he turns into something. It will be overshadowed by winning the World Series.

As far as Zito. I have NO idea what happened him. The only thing I can think of is that his lack of velocity has finally caught up with him. But his curveball was nasty. It just doesn't make sense, he was awful last year too. Maybe it's just a slump. Beane isn't stupid, theres a method to his madness. He must have seen something in Zito to keep him around and give him an extension.

I agree with that. You won so "F" the prospects you got the championship.

Zito's head got too big for himself. It's no slump, he has started off awful this year he got rocked his last outing. He isn't very good anymore.

 

[Gator Mike]

Lowe is someone you could count on in the playoffs.

He was OK. I'm not sure I'd say you could "count" on him... he had his rough times in the post-season, as well. I thought he was awful against the Yankees in the 2003 ALCS, for instance.

The best predictor of post-season success is usually regular season success.

how stupid was the whole Nomar thing? A guy who hits .325, 30 HR, 100 RBI, steals 15+, etc... His defense was bad in 04 because of injury (yes he was declining, but in 03 he wasn't a liability he was made out to be in 04).

They made several reasonable contract offers to Nomar in the two years leading up to the trade, and he turned them all down.

And Nomar's defense was never anything more than average.

Theo is an overrated GM. Theo wanted to trade Manny, sign A-Rod, and the owners went over his head to trade for Schilling. If Theo had total control, "last year" would have never happened for the Sox. That is a fact.

You can't kill Theo for moves he didn't make, and then credit someone else for moves they did make that turned out well. Anyone could look bad using that standard.

What the F' move has he made that has actually worked out?

Off the top of my head...

Free Agent signings: David Ortiz, Bill Mueller, Mark Bellhorn, Keith Foulke, Mike Timlin, Bronson Arroyo.

Trades: Mark Bellhorn for cash, Kevin Millar for a minor leaguer, Alan Embree for a minor leaguer, Dave Roberts for a minor leaguer.

We also had to trade a very good pitching prospect and we kept none of those players...

Matt Murton is an OF/1B, and he's not a "very good" prospect.

We traded Mientkiewicz for a prospect, and we get a first round pick from Anaheim in exchange for Cabrera.

Cabrerra is a very good all around SS. I would say if not at the same level as Renteria, better.

What do you base that on?

Neither one of those guys WON you a championship.

They contributed. And in Cabrera's case, they contributed more than the guy he replaced.

That championship was brought to you on the backs of Schilling, Pedro, Manny, Ortiz, and Damon. And 4 of those guys Theo had nothing to do with being in Boston.

1. That's five guys, not four.

2. I'd love to hear how Theo's not responsible for signing David Ortiz.

 

[MikeO]

1) I know its 5 guys, I said Theo had nothing to do with 4 of them! :shakeno:

2) Theo did sign Ortiz....ok, give the guy a cookie!

3) Actually, Theo did make the A-Rod move then MLB stopped it. So Im not ripping him for moves he didn't make, he actually made that move!

4) Sorry, guys like Belhorn, Embree, Millar, while all nice players didn't actually put Boston over the top last year. Nothing earth shattering there.

 

[Gator Mike]

3) Actually, Theo did make the A-Rod move then MLB stopped it. So Im not ripping him for moves he didn't make, he actually made that move!

Yes, you are. You're ripping him for trying to acquire A-Rod at a certain price. The price went up, and they pulled the plug on the deal.

Besides, we have no idea how that series of moves would have turned out for the Red Sox. Maybe they would have won the division by 15 games last year had A-Rod been playing in Boston instead of New York.

...and if you think the Schilling scenario was over Theo's head, and that he doesn't deserve any credit for it, how is he to "blame" for the entire A-Rod scenario?

4) Sorry, guys like Belhorn, Embree, Millar, while all nice players didn't actually put Boston over the top last year. Nothing earth shattering there.

The Red Sox had featured Ramirez, Martinez, Garciaparra, Varitek, Lowe (...in his Cy Young contending year), and Damon in 2002... and didn't make the playoffs. Know why? Because they had bottom of the order mediocrities like Tony Clark, Rey Sanchez, Shea Hillensuck, Carlos Baerga, and Brian Daubach. The back end of their rotation featured John Burkett, Frank Castillo, and Darren Oliver. Their bullpen included the likes of Rolando Arrojo, Casey Fossum, and Uggie Urbina.

Theo made the lineup deeper, he straightened out the bullpen, and he added a front of the rotation horse.

 

[MikeO]

1) Theo had nothing to do with the Schilling trade. He wasn't involved in the talks at all. It was an owners move in which Curt demanded his man Francona come aboard also or else he wasn't waiving his not trade clause. Theo wasn't even at the table for those talks.

2) Im not BLAMING him for the A-Rod trade. Im saying if Theo had his way, Manny and Nomar would have been gone and you would have had A-Rod. That means no Cabera, no Manny, and no Nomar. That is a bad move that he pulled the triger on but thankfully for you Sox fans MLB stopped.

He also wanted Maglio "DL" Ordonez who plays on one knee and can only give you 90 games a year if your lucky.

 

[Gator Mike]

1) Theo had nothing to do with the Schilling trade. He wasn't involved in the talks at all. It was an owners move in which Curt demanded his man Francona come aboard also or else he wasn't waiving his not trade clause. Theo wasn't even at the table for those talks.

Theo spent Thanksgiving at Schilling's home in Arizona while trying to convince him to agree to the Red Sox trade. Wasn't even at the table? You're kidding, right?

Also, Francona was a candidate long before the Schilling deal became a reality. In fact, I think he was the first person Theo interviewed after they fired Grady. Sure, Schilling approved of Francona, but I'm not buying the line of thinking that says any smart business person allows a player to choose the manager of their $120 million team.

2) Im not BLAMING him for the A-Rod trade. Im saying if Theo had his way, Manny and Nomar would have been gone and you would have had A-Rod. That means no Cabera, no Manny, and no Nomar. That is a bad move that he pulled the triger on but thankfully for you Sox fans MLB stopped.

Again, I don't get it... the Curt Schilling deal was over Theo's head, but ownership allowed him to orchestrate what would have been an even bigger deal?

And who's to say Garciaparra/Ramirez for A-Rod/Ordonez deal would have been a bad one? I was for it at the time, provided the finances worked.

He also wanted Maglio "DL" Ordonez who plays on one knee and can only give you 90 games a year if your lucky.

Hindsight is 20/20.

Prior to last season, Ordonez had played in at least 145 games in each of the previous six years.

 

[Clark Kent]

Theo is good and shows promise. He simply hasn't done anything to make me believe anything he does will be wonderful... Our Rotation went from solid with a great 1-2 punch, to very questionable.

Schilling- Coming off of major ankle surgery, and basically throwing the load on his back to carry this rotation. He should have signed Pedro. I'm beating a dead horse, but it made no sense not to.

Clement- Can this guy pitch in the AL? He's always shown potential, but has never been a dominater... a huge question mark. He was a panic signing...

Wade Miller- Although he has great stuff, he's coming off shoulder surgery. They're banking on this guy a little to much... Also played in the NL, so that's a question. Although Schilling came from the NL he has answered that question.

David Wells- Not a terrific pitcher anymore (good year last year, in the NL mind you). A good 5th starter, not a good 2nd... Miss out on Pedro and Pavano and you come up with Wells?

He tore a WS team apart, period... It's one thing for change, but the core of that team is gone which is a mistake...

 

[FIN-IN-RI]

Leavin way to many players on base.. It should at least 4-0.

 

[Clark Kent]

Leavin way to many players on base.. It should at least 4-0.

Curt looks real good. His fastball is only at 93 (tops) but it'll come back in time.

"Ground ball/Double play/Base hit" Renteria strikes again (got lucky when Wright screwed up)... I'm getting really annoyed with him. He either hits it on the ground, or two feet above the SS head and gets a single. He strikes more fear in his team then he does the defenses...

2-2, looks like this is Curt's last inning, unless he goes to 115+ pitches tonight.

EDIT: 4-2... god damn it. Owell, not a bad showing for someone who's playing his second game of the year (1st MLB).

 

[FIN-IN-RI]

Curt looks real good. His fastball is only at 93 (tops) but it'll come back in time.

"Ground ball/Double play/Base hit" Renteria strikes again (got lucky when Wright screwed up)... I'm getting really annoyed with him. He either hits it on the ground, or two feet above the SS head and gets a single. He strikes more fear in his team then he does the defenses...

2-2, looks like this is Curt's last inning, unless he goes to 115+ pitches tonight.

Curt's a bit off. Not a alot but just enough because of the ****ty run support

Renterria can kiss my *** at this point.

 

[Clark Kent]

Curt's a bit off. Not a alot but just enough because of the ****ty run support

Renterria can kiss my *** at this point.

5-2... What an idiot move by Tito... He's obviously close to 100 pitches, warm some people up. Instead let him give up 2 HR and then warm up people.

 

[FaninPatsyLand]

Pathetic performance with the bats last night. That game shouldn't even have been close, Wright got lucky as h*ll. We play that game again, with our offense like it should be, and he doesn't get out of the 4th. We need to bounce back tonight against the Unit.

 

[Pagan]

C'mon guys....if, if, if. If my Aunt had nuts she'd be my uncle.

You wanna go to "ifs"...if Mariano was himself last year, you go home in 4, no?

It's only one game. Give the Yanks some credit. The bats came alive last night.