PFF: Re-Rank Top QBs from 2020 NFL Draft Class | Page 2 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

PFF: Re-Rank Top QBs from 2020 NFL Draft Class

I agree with the posts that it is difficult to compare the three QBs because of the vastly different situations each was in. But I find this article positive and fair for Tua. What I find negative wrongly is what Chris Simms said (again today on PFT show with Mike Florio) or the supposedly 3 Dolphins players said or some fans who don't think Tua had a good rookie season. It may even be true when 1 of the 3 players said that Tua did not look impressive in Training Camp. That was said of Justin Herbert as well - I remember the week we played Chargers, one of the Chargers Beat writer said that Herbert looks much better in regular season than he did in Training Camp. May be that's why they were going with Tyrod Taylor. As for Tua, he had not even played in some 10 months or so because of the injury/rehab when in Training Camp with us.
 
How much of the getting pulled was more Chan telling Flores Fitz knows this offense better than anyone on this team and he’s the one who will win the game.? I’m sure it was 95% Chan vouching for the pulling more than it was Flores.
I really dont know... My intent was not to point fingers as much as it wasnt a rookie performance thing... My point was that if every rookie QB would get pulled when they got behind 3 or 10 points, then the Tua benchings would fly way way way way under the radar... This was not a shot at Flores, I just worded it wrong.
 
That 2.52 seconds to throw is a little overrated considering we threw to the flats primary ie by design a lot in the last quarter plus of the season.
 
Well the three of them are playing out about how I predicted. IMHO, by far the highest ceiling guy in the QB class was Justin Herbert and I said it many times (despite the sea of naysayers). But the most skilled guy is Joe Burrow. Tua is a solid QB who makes good decisions and is generally accurate, but he's not the type of guy who can put the team on his shoulders. He will be limited by his arm, and he's not an elite athlete, elite size, or an elite arm talent. He's a good solid player, who will be an excellent game manager. He has great character and is a great person. But at the top of the draft, people want sky high ceilings, and that's just not who he is.
You do realize that Brady wasn’t drafted until the 6th round because teams thought he was not very athletic and had an average arm. He was seen as a backup type QB who was never projected to be a QB who could put a team on his shoulders and carry a team to a championship. Yet it seems to have worked out very well for the teams Brady has Quarterbacked over the last 20 years.

Brees was also seen as a QB with limitations and the Chargers traded for Rivers to replace Brees before Brees had his arm injury. The Chiefs were the only team smart enough to move up and draft a QB most people hasn’t heard much about.

Stating Tua doesn’t have a high ceiling after starting for half a season and with perhaps the worst offensive skill position players in the entire league is rather a short sighted statement IMO. Perhaps he will not end up having that high ceiling but I am certainly not going to make that assumption until I see him play with much better talent on offense and an OC who actually knows how to develop a young QB.

The fact so many people on here are down on Tua considering what he had to deal with this past season is really surprising to me. I should also add that I posted before the draft that I would have no problem if the Dolphins drafted Herbert over Tua. So I was not one of the Tank for Tua supporters or someone who would have been upset if the Dolphins didn’t draft Tua based on his injuries at Alabama. I just think it is far too early to know exactly what the Dolphins have in Tua and whether or not he will turn out to be a top tier NFL QB or just another average starter in the NFL.

The fact is he is the QB of the Dolphins and I look forward to seeing how Tua and the offense grow with an actual pre season and training camp.
As well as a new OC who hopefully will build the offense around what Tua does best and not what a 38 year old career backup does best.
 
If you were gonna re-rank the 2012 class after the season ended RG3 would be 1st and Tannehill would be 3rd and Cousins not even ranked.

If you were gonna re-rank the 2018 class after the season ended Mayfield would be 1st, Darnold would be 2nd, Allen would be 3rd and Jackson would be 4th.

AAAND that's why you wait at least 2-3 years before coming to a conclusion on any player.
 
If you were gonna re-rank the 2012 class after the season ended RG3 would be 1st and Tannehill would be 3rd and Cousins not even ranked.

If you were gonna re-rank the 2018 class after the season ended Mayfield would be 1st, Darnold would be 2nd, Allen would be 3rd and Jackson would be 4th.

AAAND that's why you wait at least 2-3 years before coming to a conclusion on any player.
We do rankings now to appease agendas.
 
I thought it would get auto filtered.

LOl...no it didn't and i feared for your finheaven lifeline. You're a cool member and would hate to lose you. The influx of new members is driving me crazy! Half of the threads i go into now have ignored members in them. Lol...Like looking at a redacted secret document.


nosnackcar.jpg

My thread browsing experience now with the influx of new members! :lmfao:
 
You do realize that Brady wasn’t drafted until the 6th round because teams thought he was not very athletic and had an average arm. He was seen as a backup type QB who was never projected to be a QB who could put a team on his shoulders and carry a team to a championship. Yet it seems to have worked out very well for the teams Brady has Quarterbacked over the last 20 years.

Brees was also seen as a QB with limitations and the Chargers traded for Rivers to replace Brees before Brees had his arm injury. The Chiefs were the only team smart enough to move up and draft a QB most people hasn’t heard much about.

Stating Tua doesn’t have a high ceiling after starting for half a season and with perhaps the worst offensive skill position players in the entire league is rather a short sighted statement IMO. Perhaps he will not end up having that high ceiling but I am certainly not going to make that assumption until I see him play with much better talent on offense and an OC who actually knows how to develop a young QB.

The fact so many people on here are down on Tua considering what he had to deal with this past season is really surprising to me. I should also add that I posted before the draft that I would have no problem if the Dolphins drafted Herbert over Tua. So I was not one of the Tank for Tua supporters or someone who would have been upset if the Dolphins didn’t draft Tua based on his injuries at Alabama. I just think it is far too early to know exactly what the Dolphins have in Tua and whether or not he will turn out to be a top tier NFL QB or just another average starter in the NFL.

The fact is he is the QB of the Dolphins and I look forward to seeing how Tua and the offense grow with an actual pre season and training camp.
As well as a new OC who hopefully will build the offense around what Tua does best and not what a 38 year old career backup does best.
Brother, I respect your opinion very much.

But Brady cannot be the rule, because he is an extreme exception. If we go read the names of EVERY 6th round draft pick since then and see how many were successful, we will see a lot of guys, both athletic and not athletic, who were not successful. Yes, the entire NFL made a colossal mistake missing on Brady.

When we look a Brees' limitations, that can be translated into one thing--his height. He had a strong arm ... Tua does not. At this point of his career, Brees no longer has a cannon, but when drafted Brees had a strong arm and threw with good velocity. He was injured and that really threw a monkey wrench into his career, but yes, he was recruited/drafted over when the Chargers selected Rivers ... but Rivers didn't turn out to be a bad QB either. The biggest difference between the two may actually have been Sean Payton, who is a genius and built a team around Brees allowing him to reach his very high potential. Brees was a very good prospect ... just not very tall.

IMHO, the hype for Tua was far too high, and if he had been the QB for Kentucky, nobody would have wanted him in the top 5. But at Alabama, they didn't have a history of good QB's under Saban, but the rest of the team is stacked with talent behind talent. When you sit behind a line of 5 guys and most of them play in the NFL, you're very fortunate. When you pass to 4 WR's who are all 1st round NFL draft picks ... that's an unbelievably talented stable of receivers. When you always have the option to hand off or pass to a Najee Harris ... that's an offense that is far more dominant than an NFL team can sustain and rarely--if ever--achieve vs. other NFL competition. The salary cap simply will not allow that level of dominance, because there is no recruiting really, it's almost all a combo of drafting and salary cap management creating a great level of parity. So, we didn't see an accurate picture of what Tua will face in the NFL. As I've said many times, many QB's struggle adjusting to the "NFL open" window, and the most famous explanation comes from Peyton Manning, because as a rookie his coaches kept telling him to pull the trigger and he kept saying the receiver was not open and his coach kept saying "in the NFL, that is as open as people get!" It didn't come in his rookie year, but Manning obviously adjusted, and I think Tua will too ... but he's not there yet.

If I were making the decision on draft day, I would have drafted Herbert, and I'm on record saying that. If I were offered a swap of Herbert for Tua today, I'd take it. But that's not what happened nor is a swap ever going to be on the table, so the only options are to build around Tua (a very good option), trading for Deshaun Watson (a costly and risky option with a high upside), draft Zack Wilson or Justin Fields (arguably higher ceilings than Tua, but also riskier), or mortgate the future and throw a bazillion picks at the Jags to tempt them to trade you the #1 overall pick and steal Trevor Lawrence (neither the Jags or Dolphins are interested in this option). Looking at all of these options, building around Tua is 90% likely (pure speculation on my part) to be the option ... and it's a very good option.

Neither of us really has a say in what the Dolphins do (I'm assuming you do not, and I KNOW I do not), and whatever they decide we will still be a promising team. So cheers, whatever our beloved Dolphins decide to do, we will support them and look into the bright future together. :cheers:
 
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Well the three of them are playing out about how I predicted. IMHO, by far the highest ceiling guy in the QB class was Justin Herbert and I said it many times (despite the sea of naysayers). But the most skilled guy is Joe Burrow. Tua is a solid QB who makes good decisions and is generally accurate, but he's not the type of guy who can put the team on his shoulders. He will be limited by his arm, and he's not an elite athlete, elite size, or an elite arm talent. He's a good solid player, who will be an excellent game manager. He has great character and is a great person. But at the top of the draft, people want sky high ceilings, and that's just not who he is.
Nothing makes sense in this post, except for the fact that you're trying to pat yourself on the back.
 
Nothing makes sense in this post, except for the fact that you're trying to pat yourself on the back.
Highly disappointed you ignored the entire post and all of its correct statements to simply make an ad hominem attack. Disappointing man.
 
Highly disappointed you ignored the entire post and all of its correct statements to simply make an ad hominem attack. Disappointing man.
How is Herbert the higher ceiling guy and Burrow the most skilled while Tua's ceiling is just a solid player? Sorry but this doesnt make any sense.... The number one object of your post was to pat yourself on the back for wanting Herbert... Disappointing...
 
Brother, I respect your opinion very much.

But Brady cannot be the rule, because he is an extreme exception. If we go read the names of EVERY 6th round draft pick since then and see how many were successful, we will see a lot of guys, both athletic and not athletic, who were not successful. Yes, the entire NFL made a colossal mistake missing on Brady.

When we look a Brees' limitations, that can be translated into one thing--his height. He had a strong arm ... Tua does not. At this point of his career, Brees no longer has a cannon, but when drafted Brees had a strong arm and threw with good velocity. He was injured and that really threw a monkey wrench into his career, but yes, he was recruited/drafted over when the Chargers selected Rivers ... but Rivers didn't turn out to be a bad QB either. The biggest difference between the two may actually have been Sean Payton, who is a genius and built a team around Brees allowing him to reach his very high potential. Brees was a very good prospect ... just not very tall.

IMHO, the hype for Tua was far too high, and if he had been the QB for Kentucky, nobody would have wanted him in the top 5. But at Alabama, they didn't have a history of good QB's under Saban, but the rest of the team is stacked with talent behind talent. When you sit behind a line of 5 guys and most of them play in the NFL, you're very fortunate. When you pass to 4 WR's who are all 1st round NFL draft picks ... that's an unbelievably talented stable of receivers. When you always have the option to hand off or pass to a Najee Harris ... that's an offense that is far more dominant than an NFL team can sustain and rarely--if ever--achieve vs. other NFL competition. The salary cap simply will not allow that level of dominance, because there is no recruiting really, it's almost all a combo of drafting and salary cap management creating a great level of parity. So, we didn't see an accurate picture of what Tua will face in the NFL. As I've said many times, many QB's struggle adjusting to the "NFL open" window, and the most famous explanation comes from Peyton Manning, because as a rookie his coaches kept telling him to pull the trigger and he kept saying the receiver was not open and his coach kept saying "in the NFL, that is as open as people get!" It didn't come in his rookie year, but Manning obviously adjusted, and I think Tua will too ... but he's not there yet.

If I were making the decision on draft day, I would have drafted Herbert, and I'm on record saying that. If I were offered a swap of Herbert for Tua today, I'd take it. But that's not what happened nor is a swap ever going to be on the table, so the only options are to build around Tua (a very good option), trading for Deshaun Watson (a costly and risky option with a high upside), draft Zack Wilson or Justin Fields (arguably higher ceilings than Tua, but also riskier), or mortgate the future and throw a bazillion picks at the Jags to tempt them to trade you the #1 overall pick and steal Trevor Lawrence (neither the Jags or Dolphins are interested in this option). Looking at all of these options, building around Tua is 90% likely (pure speculation on my part) to be the option ... and it's a very good option.

Neither of us really has a say in what the Dolphins do (I'm assuming you do not, and I KNOW I do not), and whatever they decide we will still be a promising team. So cheers, whatever our beloved Dolphins decide to do, we will support them and look into the bright future together. :cheers:
I too respect your opinion. My point in this discussion is that Tua is the Dolphins QB and I feel it is far too early to know how his career will turn out. The Dolphins had no opportunity to draft Burrow so eventually in the years to come the argument will be if the Dolphins should have drafted Herbert or Tua at 5.

As I stated above, I would have been happy with either Tua or Herbert in the draft. This past season Herbert obviously played well in most of his starts but he also had games he didn’t play well in and yet he never was pulled from the game. He was allowed to play through the ups and downs because his team wasn’t in the playoff race. He also wasn’t forced to play with a lineup of WR’s in several games who were the teams 5th or 6th WR’s on the roster as well as WR’s who were practice squad players during the week and only promoted because of injuries.

I congratulate Herbert for having a very good rookie season but the reality is Tua is the QB of the Dolphins and I am not the least bit disappointed in Tua being the QB of the Dolphins instead of Herbert. Perhaps I will feel differently 3 or 4 years from now if Herbert becomes a consistent pro bowl caliber QB and Tua is just an average NFL QB but right now I am happy to ride with Tua and see how far he can take this team.
 
Tuas ceiling revolves around his ability to process information

I don’t think there’s any doubt about that

some physical strides this offseason would be big too. Nothing crazy but more hip torque more shoulder and core strength. Maximize what you have.
 
How is Herbert the higher ceiling guy and Burrow the most skilled while Tua's ceiling is just a solid player? Sorry but this doesnt make any sense.... The number one object of your post was to pat yourself on the back for wanting Herbert... Disappointing...
Glad you are now discussing the merits:

Herbert's Ceiling is Higher Because:
Far stronger arm, and tremendously higher arm talent. Bigger physical build including height and muscle. Far more mobile, allowing him to extend plays and be a legitimate run threat. The physical tools teams seek in a QB are exactly what Justin Herbert possesses, and every talent evaluator will clearly give the strong edge to Herbert in size, strength, speed, and most importantly, arm talent. In fact, on these attributes, it's not even close. Guys like Elway aren't highly rated because they're average height with a weak arm. Burrow's ability is capped by his weak arm, and what we've seen is he is maximizing what he has and is playing close to his ceiling already. Burrow's strengths are the type of things typically associated with veteran QB's, and he is a very good QB .. but his ceiling is nowhere near that of Justin Herbert's ceiling.

Burrow is the most skilled player:
This is also not even close. Burrow processes information quicker than anyone, is the most accurate, possesses the best timing, and has absorbed and mastered his playbook better than any of the other QB's. His injury cut short what was a brilliant rookie year showcasing his tremendous skills. No, he does not have the physical tools and will never be an Elway, Marino type QB, but he does look like he could be the next Joe Montana.

Tua's ceiling is as a solid player:
Tua is small, but in today's NFL that is less of a drawback than it was in the power eras when the rules didn't protect the QB so much. Tua is elusive, but nobody will ever confuse him with Kyler Murray, Lamar Jackson or Michael Vick. In fact, he's not the running threat that Justin Herbert is, or Josh Allen, or about half of the NFL. His mobility is ... NFL average. Not bad, just not elite. Tua's running ability is probably on par with guys like Aaron Rodgers, who while he loves his Discount Double-Check, is only an average NFL runner. Rodgers is MVP because he uses his mobility to showcase his cannon of an arm, quick release and unbelievably accurate throws. As a thrower, Tua is accurate ... but not dominantly so. Tua's best features are 1) decision making (as shown through avoiding INT's), and 2) accuracy (as shown through giving his guy a chance to catch the ball without allowing the defense the chance to get an INT). Those are the things demanded of all starting NFL QB's. If these become elite, then his decision making and accuracy will rise to Brady levels ... but Brady is 6'5 and still has a strong arm. Tua will need to make those throws when the DB's get a beat longer to react, so it will be tougher.

It's certainly not just me who has these ideas. Here are a few of the so called experts who have similar opinions:

1. PFF ranking of the 2020 Rookies:
(Herbert #4, Burrow #5, and Tua did not make the top 25)
https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-ranking-top-25-rookies-2020-nfl-season

2. Daniel Jeremiah's ranking of the 2020 Rookies
(Herbert #1, Burrow #4, Tua did not make the top 25)
https://www.nfl.com/news/nfl-rookie...justin-jefferson-and-chase-young-headline-top

3. Different PFF authors reranking the top 3 QB's drafted in the 2020 draft:
(Burrow #1, Herbert #2, Tua #3 and they only ranked those 3 guys)
https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-rerank...lass-joe-burrow-justin-herbert-tua-tagovailoa

4. ESPN ranking of the top 10 rookies (with honorable mentions):
(Herbert #1, Burrow #7, Tua did not make the top 10)
https://abc11.com/sports/nfl-rookie...son-chase-young-vs-jeremy-chinn-more/9617883/

So yeah, I think my opinion deserves more than to be simply discredited and insulted. Hey, we can disagree ... but we can be civil about our differing opinions. Let's just disagree on the merits and I'm fine if we need to agree to disagree.
 
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