Tua Contract Negotiations Start | Page 23 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

Tua Contract Negotiations Start

Life is short. Smile. Enjoy it. Talk a walk. Have a cool drink of water. All good.

Tua gettin paid. End of story.

Now let's hope Miami can put together a solid D. We need that to have a real chance at making a run at the SB.

Why do I feel like you’re trying to sell me a T-shirt?
 
The obvious concern is that the good & bad of the Dolphins offense are two sides of the same coin, the failures of the offense to evolve and find a counterpunch being directly related to how unique the offense is and how that seems to work so well when things are all heading in the same direction.

Still, I think it's foolish to expect that a team will stay perfectly healthy. It's foolish to think good opponents will lay down. It's foolish to expect homefield advantage all the time. Miami's offense has to find a way to possess and move the ball more consistently when they're not playing crappy teams like the Panthers and Giants who give up 20-yd passes like they're going out of style or when they're not 100% healthy or when they're not at home in ideal conditions playing with very little on the line in September.

I expected a bigger emphasis to be placed on Miami getting back to its 70's roots when McDaniel came in. I expected more of the week-in, week-out physical rushing attack SF had developed. I expected Tua to be protected with that kind of offense the way that Russell Wilson was protected by Marshawn Lynch and the Seahawks offensive game-plans which allowed Wilson to consistently churn out low-volume, high efficiency production, occasionally being a hero in otherwise ho-hum performances.

I did not expect Miami to lean into this attempt to try and make Tua look like an MVP candidate and I worry that his physical limitations make that a bad long-term strategy. Yes, we'll whip up on the bad teams early in the season but will we actually be a force to contend with in Dec-Jan? What if we're simply a finesse offense that requires easy, chunk plays which typically aren't given up so easily by the better pass defenses?

To act like McDaniel and Tua have proven everything they need to in order to be considered "the answers" is too friendly to them IMHO. This offense was constructed to rehabilitate Tua as a franchise QB and it's certainly done wonders to lift his image, but it's not clear whether this offense has the juice to compete against the best teams in the biggest games. It's failed over a half-dozen times when given chances with performances that were frustratingly inept at times.

It needs to develop a counterpunch that it's had 2 years to come up with.
While I agree with you that this team has not demonstrated they can win late in the season. I believe the main reason of it last year was that our key players on offense were exhausted and banged up. This year we should prioritize on getting more players involved and giving our core players some rest during regular season so they are healthy and close to full speed when it matters. I believe if we can do that this year our offense will be as good as anyone, even against top playoff defenses.
 
Honestly, what's your point?

Most fans couldn't care less about what the media thinks but it doesn't mean they can't acknowledge that the media treats Tua differently than other QBs. That is factual and is shown time and time again when someone like Herbert throws a pick to lose a game and you don't see a million articles or tweets about it the next day. You equate people questioning the media to being jealous and biased but why? I equate it to people catching on that most "experts" don't know much at all and their opinions aren't worth more than many posters on here.

You acknowledge there are many QBs who haven't won squat but are still praised because of their physical attributes but then you say it's pathetic and out of touch if a dolphins fan questions the media on this clear bias towards physical attributes. Tell me, how has Justin Herbert throwing the ball 80 yards helped him win games in the NFL?

QBs should be judged based on their play on the field and nothing else. I don't care if kyler Murray can run fast if he plays like **** and can't win games, I dont care if Herbert can throw far if he constantly comes up short in the clutch. If you rank someone higher because of physical attributes when the other QB has clearly been better on the field the last two years then why should we care what you think?
Be careful arguing with if it’s Yellow let it Mellow. He will put you on ignore like he did to me when I destroyed his lame argument about how Tom Brady wasn’t the reason for New England’s dynasty.
 
Are you actually trying to create an army of straw men here? You’re countering at least 4 points that I DIDN’T EVEN MAKE.

However, I’m glad that you’re aware of the difference between a fact and an inference.

You absolutely made this statement: "the fact that Miami was surely considering what options they'd have in replacing him and needed to go out and spend millions to build an unconventional offense around him is exactly what creates questions about a guys universal value."

You’re stating something as a fact that simply isn’t one.


I find it hilarious that the guy you are responding to accuses you of being too sensitive, but this same person has me on ignore because I crushed his argument about the Patriots dynasty.
 
While I agree with you that this team has not demonstrated they can win late in the season. I believe the main reason of it last year was that our key players on offense were exhausted and banged up. This year we should prioritize on getting more players involved and giving our core players some rest during regular season so they are healthy and close to full speed when it matters. I believe if we can do that this year our offense will be as good as anyone, even against top playoff defenses.

Two responses to that:

#1
If your perspective turns out to be correct, the most obvious path forward would seem to be the Dolphins treating 2024 as a "prove it" year, with success bolstering the idea of further developing this offense in its current form.

Be real about things. This offense has been loaded with skill position talent for the last 2 years. And it's fallen short against good opponents both years. In 2022, Tua ended his season with 4 straight losses against SF, LA, BUF and GB. In 2023, Miami ended their season with 3 straight losses to the AFCs most powerful teams: BAL, BUF and KC. To add salt to the wound, Miami had already lost to both BUF and KC earlier in the year, too.

We're dancing around saying the obvious, which is that people on the outside don't waste their time listening to these excuses. We absolutely suck in the biggest moments. We scored 14 against KC and then even less against them in the Playoffs. We were outscored by double-digits. We had 13 first downs and could not possess the ball. We could only muster 14 points against Buffalo with everything on the line a week before. We were blasted out of the stadium before that in Baltimore.

Be real. When it's clutch time, we stink and I've got news...it's more than a few OL injuries. It's structurally baked into the nature of this offense which (to be polite) is aimed at maximizing Tua's passer rating and turning his career around.

There is nothing about the Dolphins offense that is worthy of mortgaging the future for until we know it's actually capable of ringing the bell against good teams in big games.

#2
The voices of outside analysts are important to hear. The smart ones tend to be optimistic but fair. They tend to be more balanced and often more realistic than fans because they don't swim in the nonsense of weekly nonsense. Those voices have consistently highlighted the most obvious difference between Miami and elite AFC teams: the capabilities of the QB. We do not have a Mahomes, Allen or Jackson who can all single-handedly beat a good defense if they play well.

Why Miami would mortgage it's future giving Tua a long-term extension before they've beaten any good AFC teams in any meaningful Dec-Jan games is nothing short of the Dolphins being the Dolphins. Only this franchise could convince itself of the glory that exists in losing.




So many want to recall the exploits of Marino and remind us that even he didn't win the big one and that winning isn't about the QB. So quickly those people seem to have forgotten what a monster he was physically and what an incredible gift it is to have an elite player at the most critical position. The real lesson from Marino is that Miami would've never gotten above .500 in the late '80s or throughout the '90s without having such a massive advantage at QB. It's not a shame they never won a SB. It's a shame people don't realize how truly ugly and limited they would've been without Marino.

We took Tua when there were a TON of doubts about his physical limitations. We all agreed we were taking a risk but preferred that to the alternative. But again, we knew the risks going in and we knew there very well could be a real ceiling with the player. What's shocking is that talking about those same limitations today is hush-hush. It's funny what Tyreek Hill and some cheat motion can do for you, LOL.

In the first 2 years, we blamed ourselves. But over the last 2 years we've built an incredible offense around him starting with finding one of the most progressive HC's in the NFL. We've added a 1st ballot HoF WR alongside our #6 overall pick WR. We've got talent up and down the offense and a slew of OL pieces who were good enough to earn a chance at returning and playing against this year (and likely into the future).

There has always been an excuse. It was the bad team. It was Gailey. It was Flores. Then it was concussions robbing us of making a run. Then it was the OL and now it's WR depth. We will never run out of excuses which is precisely why having Tua play out 2024 would help finalize this conversation.

If the offense evolves, great. Question answered and we're happy to pay him. If the offense struggles yet again or Tua gets hurt for the 6th time in 7 years, we'll have our answer there as well.

Only the bad team would commit to the most important position long-term knowing there's real physical limitation in the present player before there's any actual Playoff success. I'd be fine with Tua being small if we were standing on the back of 2 nice Playoff runs. But we aren't. Two losses is not evidence of something good. With the investments we've made it's evidence of major structural limitations. Only a fool would dive in head first without first checking to see if there's actually water in the pool.
 
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Be careful arguing with if it’s Yellow let it Mellow. He will put you on ignore like he did to me when I destroyed his lame argument about how Tom Brady wasn’t the reason for New England’s dynasty.
He has me on ignore too apparently. Quite happy with his decision. Saves me much time reading a bunch of bullshit daily.
 
I can copy and paste all that back to yall!
🐻
 
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Two responses to that:

#1
If your perspective turns out to be correct, the most obvious path forward would seem to be the Dolphins treating 2024 as a "prove it" year, with success bolstering the idea of further developing this offense in its current form.

Be real about things. This offense has been loaded with skill position talent for the last 2 years. And it's fallen short against good opponents both years. In 2022, Tua ended his season with 4 straight losses against SF, LA, BUF and GB. In 2023, Miami ended their season with 3 straight losses to the AFCs most powerful teams: BAL, BUF and KC. To add salt to the wound, Miami had already lost to both BUF and KC earlier in the year, too.

We're dancing around saying the obvious, which is that people on the outside don't waste their time listening to these excuses. We absolutely suck in the biggest moments. We scored 14 against KC and then even less against them in the Playoffs. We were outscored by double-digits. We had 13 first downs and could not possess the ball. We could only muster 14 points against Buffalo with everything on the line a week before. We were blasted out of the stadium before that in Baltimore.

Be real. When it's clutch time, we stink and I've got news...it's more than a few OL injuries. It's structurally baked into the nature of this offense which (to be polite) is aimed at maximizing Tua's passer rating and turning his career around.

There is nothing about the Dolphins offense that is worthy of mortgaging the future for until we know it's actually capable of ringing the bell against good teams in big games.

#2
The voices of outside analysts are important to hear. The smart ones tend to be optimistic but fair. They tend to be more balanced and often more realistic than fans because they don't swim in the nonsense of weekly nonsense. Those voices have consistently highlighted the most obvious difference between Miami and elite AFC teams: the capabilities of the QB. We do not have a Mahomes, Allen or Jackson who can all single-handedly beat a good defense if they play well.

Why Miami would mortgage it's future giving Tua a long-term extension before they've beaten any good AFC teams in any meaningful Dec-Jan games is nothing short of the Dolphins being the Dolphins. Only this franchise could convince itself of the glory that exists in losing.




So many want to recall the exploits of Marino and remind us that even he didn't win the big one and that winning isn't about the QB. So quickly those people seem to have forgotten what a monster he was physically and what an incredible gift it is to have an elite player at the most critical position. The real lesson from Marino is that Miami would've never gotten above .500 in the late '80s or throughout the '90s without having such a massive advantage at QB. It's not a shame they never won a SB. It's a shame people don't realize how truly ugly and limited they would've been without Marino.

We took Tua when there were a TON of doubts about his physical limitations. We all agreed we were taking a risk but preferred that to the alternative. But again, we knew the risks going in and we knew there very well could be a real ceiling with the player. What's shocking is that talking about those same limitations today is hush-hush. It's funny what Tyreek Hill and some cheat motion can do for you, LOL.

In the first 2 years, we blamed ourselves. But over the last 2 years we've built an incredible offense around him starting with finding one of the most progressive HC's in the NFL. We've added a 1st ballot HoF WR alongside our #6 overall pick WR. We've got talent up and down the offense and a slew of OL pieces who were good enough to earn a chance at returning and playing against this year (and likely into the future).

There has always been an excuse. It was the bad team. It was Gailey. It was Flores. Then it was concussions robbing us of making a run. Then it was the OL and now it's WR depth. We will never run out of excuses which is precisely why having Tua play out 2024 would help finalize this conversation.

If the offense evolves, great. Question answered and we're happy to pay him. If the offense struggles yet again or Tua gets hurt for the 6th time in 7 years, we'll have our answer there as well.

Only the bad team would commit to the most important position long-term knowing there's real physical limitation in the present player before there's any actual Playoff success. I'd be fine with Tua being small if we were standing on the back of 2 nice Playoff runs. But we aren't. Two losses is not evidence of something good. With the investments we've made it's evidence of major structural limitations. Only a fool would dive in head first without first checking to see if there's actually water in the pool.

I would literally use this as an example of bias.

Particularly, I love how “Tua ended HIS season with…” and “concussions robbing US” and “WE took Tua” and “WE’RE dancing around saying the obvious.”

Just say you don’t like Tua.

It’s fine. But stop trying to hedge up to it and give any sort of nonsense or sugar coat it, or try to surreptitiously get people on whatever sort of anti-extension bandwagon you’re working on. It’s unseemly.

PEOPLE ARE ALLOWED TO DISAGREE WITH YOU.
 
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I would literally use this as an example of bias.

Particularly, I love how “Tua ended HIS season with…” and “concussions robbing US” and “WE took Tua” and “WE’RE dancing around saying the obvious.”

Just say you don’t like Tua.

It’s fine. But stop trying to hedge up to it and give any sort of nonsense or sugar coat it, or try to surreptitiously get people on whatever sort of anti-extension bandwagon you’re working on. It’s unseemly.

PEOPLE ARE ALLOWED TO DISAGREE WITH YOU.

TBH, I don't really root for players. These guys are mature adults who make tons of cash and live the ultimate life, retiring before they even hit 40. Let's be real. These guys don't need our pity. When you get older and the players are all younger than you, it becomes kind of absurd to root for someone else's kid when they're already making more than you ever will. The idea of "defending" someone who's already a multi-millionaire and could retire tomorrow is just silly to me. Pity for a starting QB is really just sad and says more to me about the person offering it than anything else.

I root for the team so I think in terms of what's good/bad for it.

I guess by your post you're telling me you're a fan of the Dolphins building around Tua. That's fine for you--and I'd definitely like to see at least another year--but I wouldn't feel comfortable building the entire team around Tua until we'd actually won something of consequence with him and this offense which was built just for him. Until then, this is just a temporary roster, an experiment.

To me, the NFL is a results business. When things don't work it's rarely just bad luck. Limitations of any sort get exposed because the NFL is hyper competitive. I want whatever has Miami winning. Whether that's a defensively-led team or a physical rushing team or a crazy-athletic QB who can beat any defense. I honestly don't care about the players or whether the QB is the star or anything like that. I want team success--and the 4 years with Tua hasn't provided that (yet).

I don't know how this team gets better in the long run. It's been very good around Tua for the last couple years. Unless Pat Mahomes and Josh Allen just die in a car wreck tomorrow, I don't feel super confident about Miami getting beyond where they are.
 
TBH, I don't really root for players. These guys are mature adults who make tons of cash and live the ultimate life, retiring before they even hit 40. Let's be real. These guys don't need our pity. When you get older and the players are all younger than you, it becomes kind of absurd to root for someone else's kid when they're already making more than you ever will. The idea of "defending" someone who's already a multi-millionaire and could retire tomorrow is just silly to me. Pity for a starting QB is really just sad and says more to me about the person offering it than anything else.

I root for the team so I think in terms of what's good/bad for it.

I guess by your post you're telling me you're a fan of the Dolphins building around Tua. That's fine for you--and I'd definitely like to see at least another year--but I wouldn't feel comfortable building the entire team around Tua until we'd actually won something of consequence with him and this offense which was built just for him. Until then, this is just a temporary roster, an experiment.

To me, the NFL is a results business. When things don't work it's rarely just bad luck. Limitations of any sort get exposed because the NFL is hyper competitive. I want whatever has Miami winning. Whether that's a defensively-led team or a physical rushing team or a crazy-athletic QB who can beat any defense. I honestly don't care about the players or whether the QB is the star or anything like that. I want team success--and the 4 years with Tua hasn't provided that (yet).

I don't know how this team gets better in the long run. It's been very good around Tua for the last couple years. Unless Pat Mahomes and Josh Allen just die in a car wreck tomorrow, I don't feel super confident about Miami getting beyond where they are.

I'm not specifically rooting for Tua. It just looks an awful lot like you're rooting against him.

The only one who has said the team is building around Tua is you.

You've said it repeatedly.

And I've said this before, to someone else...if you don't think Miami can win a championship while Mahomes and Allen are in the league...why don't you just go away until they retire, then?
 
I would literally use this as an example of bias.

Particularly, I love how “Tua ended HIS season with…” and “concussions robbing US” and “WE took Tua” and “WE’RE dancing around saying the obvious.”

Just say you don’t like Tua.

It’s fine. But stop trying to hedge up to it and give any sort of nonsense or sugar coat it, or try to surreptitiously get people on whatever sort of anti-extension bandwagon you’re working on. It’s unseemly.

PEOPLE ARE ALLOWED TO DISAGREE WITH YOU.
Your last sentence is true, but the guy you are arguing with will put you on ignore if you do.
 
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