Tua vs Trevor - The Truth: Analysis | Page 12 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

Tua vs Trevor - The Truth: Analysis

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TedSlimmJr said:
Where you're getting it wrong here is the assertion that you can't throw a WR open that's already stacked his man and is "open" by 2 or 3 steps. You can throw a guy "covered" if he's already open.

What you're describing is throwing the ball into a window. If it's resulting in touchdowns where receivers can maximize YAC - you're throwing the guy open.

Tua's receivers never have to break stride. They can accelerate through the catch point because he's throwing them open.




This is also throwing his receiver open - look at the TD throw here to Jeudy at the :40 second mark:










Nevermind what he does here to avoid the sack and get the ball off - just look at the throw:

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1st clip can definitely be called being thrown up, I can definitely understand u have your own definition of being thrown open but within the NFL draft community nobody would call those 1st 3 vertical routes u posted being thrown up, the fact it ends up in more YAC or a touchdown doesn't change that. I can definitely see where your coming from if you take the term literally but being thrown up means the defender has great coverage all the way through the catch point, getting late separation because of ball placement or manipulation done by the QB is typically not what we mean when we say being thrown open.
 
Jerrysanders said:
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1st clip can definitely be called being thrown up, I can definitely understand u have your own definition of being thrown open but within the NFL draft community nobody would call those 1st 3 vertical routes u posted being thrown up, the fact it ends up in more YAC or a touchdown doesn't change that. I can definitely see where your coming from if you take the term literally but being thrown up means the defender has great coverage all the way through the catch point, getting late separation because of ball placement or manipulation done by the QB is typically not what we mean when we say being thrown open.
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I think what you don't understand in regards to vertical routes is that tracking the football is on the receiver. This has nothing to do with the throw.

If it doesn't have the correct trajectory and correct placement - it's not an accurate throw even if it is complete. If you throw it over the wrong shoulder and the receiver somehow adjusts to it to catch it, you still threw it over the wrong shoulder. Period.

Tua throws the deep ball with rare placement and trajectory - accuracy. It's why those receivers never have to break stride. Trevor underthrows or overthrows a lot of those balls and they're just converted into 50/50 balls where his moster 6'4" freakshow receivers just Moss poor DB's.

His accuracy isn't even on the same planet as Tua's. I'm just telling you.
 
TedSlimmJr said:
It's true. Fans are so biased in support of their own crappy quarterbacks that they think everybody else is that way too.

This has nothing to do with the uniform that kid is wearing. Go back and read all my comments on Jalen Hurts before Tua finally took over. I watched receivers run wide open for 2 years while Jalen just stood there and couldn't pull the trigger.

If Tua was at Clemson and Trevor was at Alabama my view wouldn't change one bit. It's Tua.
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The fact that you called it not even being close between Tua and Trevor after only 1 game starting the season implies you have some confirmation bias going on, The whole reason anyone would call Trevor possibly the best QB prospect ever even tho Tua just had one of the best college football season ever done by a QB ever is based on NFL projection, Tua I think u have stated yourself as more of college football guy.
 
Jerrysanders said:
The fact that you called it not even being close between Tua and Trevor after only 1 game starting the season implies you have some confirmation bias going on, The whole reason anyone would call Trevor possibly the best QB prospect ever even tho Tua just had one of the best college football season ever done by a QB ever is based on NFL projection, Tua I think u have stated yourself as more of college football guy.
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No, all I've heard for the past 8 months since Clemson and Alabama played is that Trevor Lawrence is the best quarterback ever created. It's because people think he beat a vintage Bama defense by 28 points. But it's simply not what happened.

I never subscribed to the theory that Trevor was better than Tua - before or after that game. I definitely don't subscribe to the theory that Trevor is the best quarterback prospect in the history of mankind. Not even close. But I think he had one of the three best freshman seasons I've ever seen by a QB, along with Jamies Winston and Phillip Rivers.

He has tremendous physical tools that the NFL likes - but so did a lot of others. I think he has issues with the way the ball comes out of his hand, accuracy, staring down receivers to one side of the field, processing information quickly, and his receivers making him look a lot better than he's really playing because they're so talented at winning those contested catches.

Now, I don't know a thing about you or your track record with QB's. Mine speaks for itself. I'm convinced Tua is a better college quarterback, and is a better pro prospect.

We're going to find out. I ain't going anywhere. Relax.
 
TedSlimmJr said:
I think what you don't understand in regards to vertical routes is that tracking the football is on the receiver. This has nothing to do with the throw.

If it doesn't have the correct trajectory and correct placement - it's not an accurate throw even if it is complete. If you throw it over the wrong shoulder and the receiver somehow adjusts to it to catch it, you still threw it over the wrong shoulder. Period.

Tua throws the deep ball with rare placement and trajectory - accuracy. It's why those receivers never have to break stride. Trevor underthrows or overthrows a lot of those balls and they're just converted into 50/50 balls where his moster 6'4" freakshow receivers just Moss poor DB's.

His accuracy isn't even on the same planet as Tua's. I'm just telling you.
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I don't know what this rebuttal is referring too because I didn't see anyone implying anything different, the reason Scouts simply don't give the deep ball as much as importance as intermediate routes is because of the wr skill factor involved, an accurate skilled QB can go 9 for 9 on the slant with the same exact placement, there's no qb that can have the same exact placement on vertical throws.(Im sorry but there's limits to what humans can do) Weighing the deep ball too heavily when scouting a QB is not a good idea.
 
Jerrysanders said:
I don't know what this rebuttal is referring too because I didn't see anyone implying anything different, the reason Scouts simply don't give the deep ball as much as importance as intermediate routes is because of the wr skill factor involved, an accurate skilled QB can go 9 for 9 on the slant with the same exact placement, there's no qb that can have the same exact placement on vertical throws.(Im sorry but there's limits to what humans can do) Weighing the deep ball too heavily when scouting a QB is not a good idea.
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I'm not weighing it too heavily - I'm saying Tua has deep accuracy that is rare.

If you want to talk about importance on all the other throws - short to intermediate - tight windows, anticipatory throws, in breaking routes, out breaking routes, flat throws, throws under pressure - he separates himself even more.

Go watch the throw against UGA in the SEC championship game where he deliberately throws behind Devonta Smith on a square in - in between two defenders to keep from leading Smith into that safety that was coming head on - yet still only where Smith could catch it and the trailing CB couldn't. I'm tired of posting videos and people still not even being able to understand what they're seeing. I'm just not going to keep doing it.
 
TedSlimmJr said:
No, all I've heard for the past 8 months since Clemson and Alabama played is that Trevor Lawrence is the best quarterback ever created. It's because people think he beat a vintage Bama defense by 28 points. But it's simply not what happened.

I never subscribed to the theory that Trevor was better than Tua - before or after that game. I definitely don't subscribe to the theory that Trevor is the best quarterback prospect in the history of mankind. Not even close. But I think he had one of the three best freshman seasons I've ever seen by a QB, along with Jamies Winston and Phillip Rivers.

He has tremendous physical tools that the NFL likes - but so did a lot of others. I think he has issues with the way the ball comes out of his hand, accuracy, staring down receivers to one side of the field, processing information quickly, and his receivers making him look a lot better than he's really playing because they're so talented at winning those contested catches.

Now, I don't know a thing about you or your track record with QB's. Mine speaks for itself. I'm convinced Tua is a better college quarterback, and is a better pro prospect.

We're going to find out. I ain't going anywhere. Relax.
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I love Tua he possibly had one the best season ever done by a QB in college football, but I'm not going to act like it's a done deal between him and Tua, as far as NFL projections goes, Tua's arm is weaker than Bakers and Murray's ( He put on 15 pounds of muscle this season and I didn't see any velocity issues in the 1st game) so how will a shorter qb without plus one arm strength will look in the NFL, the separation those alabama wrs are creating is elite, there's so many factors we have to take into account as far as projections.
 
Jerrysanders said:
I love Tua he possibly had one the best season ever done by a QB in college football, but I'm not going to act like it's a done deal between him and Tua, as far as NFL projections goes, Tua's arm is weaker than Bakers and Murray's ( He put on 15 pounds of muscle this season and I didn't see any velocity issues in the 1st game) so how will a shorter qb without plus one arm strength will look in the NFL, the separation those alabama wrs are creating is elite, there's so many factors we have to take into account as far as projections.
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His arm is fine. And he's a better quarterback than Baker or Murray.

I didn't say it was a done deal for you. I said it was a done deal for me.
 
TedSlimmJr said:
I'm not weighing it too heavily - I'm saying Tua has deep accuracy that is rare.

If you want to talk about importance on all the other throws - short to intermediate - tight windows, anticipatory throws, in breaking routes, out breaking routes, flat throws, throws under pressure - he separates himself even more.

Go watch the throw against UGA in the SEC championship game where he deliberately throws behind Devonta Smith on a square in - in between two defenders to keep from leading Smith into that safety that was coming head on - yet still only where Smith could catch it and the trailing CB couldn't. I'm tired of posting videos and people still not even being able to understand what they're seeing. I'm just not going to keep doing it.
Click to expand...

SMH if you think Tua separates himself even more on the throws I've highlighted.
 
OK, I come in peace!

Just want to know -- and that's all, if you believe Tua needs to improve his game in any way to be
a stud NFL QB? Also, in your opinion, how much upside do you think the kid has?

And, maybe most important IMO, do you believe his core game translates better to a specific
type of O? For example, the new staff in Miami seems committed to the same type system
Brady has been in. Which to me, seems more classic pocket QB based. Is that a fair
statement in your view?

If so -- how do you project Tua in that kind of scheme?
 
Jerrysanders said:
SMH if you think Tua separates himself even more on the throws I've highlighted.
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Let me ask you this - how would you defend Trevor? What coverages would you play based on down & distance, who would you man up and who would you zone - and how? What would your pressure packages look like? Where do you want him to setup, and where do you want to try to get his eyes to go first?

Answer those same questions for Tua if you don't mind.
 
BigNastyFish said:
OK, I come in peace!

Just want to know -- and that's all, if you believe Tua needs to improve his game in any way to be
a stud NFL QB? Also, in your opinion, how much upside do you think the kid has?

And, maybe most important IMO, do you believe his core game translates better to a specific
type of O? For example, the new staff in Miami seems committed to the same type system
Brady has been in. Which to me, seems more classic pocket QB based. Is that a fair
statement in your view?

If so -- how do you project Tua in that kind of scheme?
Click to expand...

The thing I think Tua needs to continue to work to improve is his ball spin and the way he throws the football. I think the accuracy and ball placement and consistency are there but I've seen quite a few of his spirals come apart at the seams toward the end of his throws. I think his velocity needs to continue to evolve as well.

As for the potential, the sky is the limit. We've seen quarterbacks with his makeup rise all the way to the top of the game.
 
ckparrothead said:
The thing I think Tua needs to continue to work to improve is his ball spin and the way he throws the football. I think the accuracy and ball placement and consistency are there but I've seen quite a few of his spirals come apart at the seams toward the end of his throws. I think his velocity needs to continue to evolve as well.

As for the potential, the sky is the limit. We've seen quarterbacks with his makeup rise all the way to the top of the game.
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Interesting insight... I always think lefties look "odd" and it's harder for me to access mechanics...

Side point -- it seems "spin" is one of the strengths of Rosen, yes?

Thanks...

PS any feedback about him being plug and play in the O system we're running now?
 
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