Tua vs Trevor - The Truth: Analysis

[BigNastyFish]

OK, didn't have time to watch past like 4 min.

In that time I saw 2 drops that IMO had zero to do with spin per se but just
missed by receiver. Lawrence escapes pressure well, big physical kid.

Deeper ball accuracy was iffy when pressured -- kind of typical...

But the kid has an arm. And impressive athlete. I still like him.

Really depends how much he develops his game this season IMO.
How much upside he has and if he's got "it" upstairs.

Still think he's a very strong prospect. But anyone favoring Tua
I won't agree that one. Tua seems more like a finished product IMO.

I just wouldn't short sell Trevor in the future.

I'll watch the balance later...

Thanks.

 

[Jerrysanders]

Let me ask you this - how would you defend Trevor? What coverages would you play based on down & distance, who would you man up and who would you zone - and how? What would your pressure packages look like? Where do you want him to setup, and where do you want to try to get his eyes to go first?

Answer those same questions for Tua if you don't mind.

This game is too nuanced to just ask the question how would I play Tua or Trevor without factoring the skill set of my defense, but in general my defense calls would be more of a scheme vs scheme matchup. against Clemson offense you definitely need gap control from your LBs and lineman that won't get washed down but can also penetrate on the back end you need a zone based scheme since most kids in college can't press at a high level, so I'd mix quarters coverage for those verticals and two over the top to help guard vs outs and slants, I'd let them have the screens and stop corner routes and the dig.

Alabama's offense is much more west coast based this year (more Shanahan type than Bill Walsh) Duke tried to disguise a lot of their coverages pre snap and they played off coverage way too much. I still favor press coverage vs the West Coast Offense, disrupt the timing, blitzing won't work too well even the backs will be in the flats the majority of time but even without the extra protection Tua will get the ball off before the blitz get there.

I don't mind answering scheme knowledge or coverage based hypothetical type of questions but I'd rather ask questions about how their game will translate into NFL.

 

[Pachyderm_Wave]

This game is too nuanced to just ask the question how would I play Tua or Trevor without factoring the skill set of my defense, but in general my defense calls would be more of a scheme vs scheme matchup. against Clemson offense you definitely need gap control from your LBs and lineman that won't get washed down but can also penetrate on the back end you need a zone based scheme since most kids in college can't press at a high level, so I'd mix quarters coverage for those verticals and two over the top to help guard vs outs and slants, I'd let them have the screens and stop corner routes and the dig.

Alabama's offense is much more west coast based this year (more Shanahan type than Bill Walsh) Duke tried to disguise a lot of their coverages pre snap and they played off coverage way too much. I still favor press coverage vs the West Coast Offense, disrupt the timing, blitzing won't work too well even the backs will be in the flats the majority of time but even without the extra protection Tua will get the ball off before the blitz get there.

I don't mind answering scheme knowledge or coverage based hypothetical type of questions but I'd rather ask questions about how their game will translate into NFL.

This is what I was looking for - forget all the rest of that mess. You blitz from the edges and zone up behind it. Very good.

The way you play Trevor, and your best chance of shutting him down is by forcing him to dink and dunk you down the field and stress his accuracy. Make him throw underneath time and time and time again. But your DB's have to be able to come up and make the tackles. You can't necessarily worry about trying to stop Etienne - let him get his yards. You'd rather get in a scoring contest with him than those receivers.

What you can't do is just let his monster receivers man you up down the field all day and boss you on all those 50/50 balls for explosive plays downfield. Or get their best receiver on your worst DB. But the weakness is going to be up the seam - your safety must communicate and defend the hash no matter what. You can't let a guy get behind you right there on 3rd and long.

Trevor's accuracy is his weakness on shorter to intermediate throws. It's. All. Over. His. Film.


You can't play Tua like that. He's too accurate, gets the ball out too quickly, and he'll eat you up all day if you zone him or blitz him. The way you play Tua is to mix your coverage up and show him something completely different after the snap. Which will work until he's seen all of 'em.

He'll have seen all the coverages he's going to see before Trevor becomes a precision passer.

I'm taking Tua today. I'm taking him yesterday. And I'm taking him tomorrow.

 

[Jerrysanders]

This is what I was looking for - forget all the rest of that mess. You blitz from the edges and zone up behind it. Very good.

The way you play Trevor, and your best chance of shutting him down is by forcing him to dink and dunk you down the field and stress his accuracy. Make him throw underneath time and time and time again. But your DB's have to be able to come up and make the tackles. You can't necessarily worry about trying to stop Etienne - let him get his yards. You'd rather get in a scoring contest with him than those receivers.

What you can't do is just let his monster receivers man you up down the field all day and boss you on all those 50/50 balls for explosive plays downfield. Or get their best receiver on your worst DB. But the weakness is going to be up the seam - your safety must communicate and defend the hash no matter what. You can't let a guy get behind you right there on 3rd and long.

Trevor's accuracy is his weakness on shorter to intermediate throws. It's. All. Over. His. Film.


You can't play Tua like that. He's too accurate, gets the ball out too quickly, and he'll eat you up all day if you zone him or blitz him. The way you play Tua is to mix your coverage up and show him something completely different after the snap. Which will work until he's seen all of 'em.

He'll have seen all the coverages he's going to see before Trevor becomes a precision passer.

I'm taking Tua today. I'm taking him yesterday. And I'm taking him tomorrow.

Duke tried that but there's was way too much zone mix in, Press is the best way to go to beat that, there's way to much zone beating concepts in that offense this year plus that offense can play patient this year so press with 2 deep is my choice. I think Tua has improved last year.

 

[TheWalrus]

Curious what you think Tua's (relative) weaknesses are, Slimm. I personally don't like the reckless way he throws his body around when he's scrambling. Too much Steve Young/Jim McMahon, not enough Russell Wilson.

He's also clearly not a gunslinger type in the Marino/Mahomes/Favre mold, but whether that's a weakness as compared to the more conservative style of players like Brady or Brees is obviously more of a personal taste thing than a strength/weakness. Lots of ways to do it well.

 

[Jerrysanders]

This is what I was looking for - forget all the rest of that mess. You blitz from the edges and zone up behind it. Very good.

The way you play Trevor, and your best chance of shutting him down is by forcing him to dink and dunk you down the field and stress his accuracy. Make him throw underneath time and time and time again. But your DB's have to be able to come up and make the tackles. You can't necessarily worry about trying to stop Etienne - let him get his yards. You'd rather get in a scoring contest with him than those receivers.

What you can't do is just let his monster receivers man you up down the field all day and boss you on all those 50/50 balls for explosive plays downfield. Or get their best receiver on your worst DB. But the weakness is going to be up the seam - your safety must communicate and defend the hash no matter what. You can't let a guy get behind you right there on 3rd and long.

Trevor's accuracy is his weakness on shorter to intermediate throws. It's. All. Over. His. Film.


You can't play Tua like that. He's too accurate, gets the ball out too quickly, and he'll eat you up all day if you zone him or blitz him. The way you play Tua is to mix your coverage up and show him something completely different after the snap. Which will work until he's seen all of 'em.

He'll have seen all the coverages he's going to see before Trevor becomes a precision passer.

I'm taking Tua today. I'm taking him yesterday. And I'm taking him tomorrow.

Based on what I've seen the only things I'd say Tua is clearly better are eye discipline and manipulations, accuracy on short throws, especially to the flats, reading defenses, and he does have a more accurate deep ball on film, but everything else like anticipation seems very close (maybe a slight advantage for Tua) throwing on the run looks to be a wash or Trevor looked slightly better which kind of surprised me but Tua was playing on 1 ankle for the majority of the season. The arm strength advantage definitely goes to Trevor the out route to the far side of the field, Trevor is flat out better. Clemson's offense is horrible for translating to NFL success but that's not a deal breaker considering he was the no. 1 pro style qb coming out of high school.

 

[Pachyderm_Wave]

Curious what you think Tua's (relative) weaknesses are, Slimm. I personally don't like the reckless way he throws his body around when he's scrambling. Too much Steve Young/Jim McMahon, not enough Russell Wilson.

He's also clearly not a gunslinger type in the Marino/Mahomes/Favre mold, but whether that's a weakness as compared to the more conservative style of players like Brady or Brees is obviously more of a personal taste thing than a strength/weakness. Lots of ways to do it well.

I'd like to see him be more careful when he scrambles - I think he's learning that.

Honestly I see his biggest weakness as being his greatest strength - he's so aggressive. He's such an aggressive player. I think it'll serve him well when it's all said and done. He'll know how to be smart and aggressive instead of just aggressive.

 

[Jerrysanders]

I think tua throws a very catchable ball.

I do think that he could improve the arm strength a little. Likely mostly with core work etc.

I think so too, thought on his side arm or 3/4 quarters type of delivery.

Did you see Herbert Saturday ? lmao

 

[BigNastyFish]

Of course it does. Just like the riflings in the bore of a gun barrel affect the accuracy of a bullet. The more riflings per inch in the barrel of a gun - the more it spins a bullet, therefore the more accurate it is.

But it also affects accuracy in terms of how catchable the ball is for the receiver. A wobbly ball is more difficult to catch. Especially if it's thrown too hard.


Watch this video of Trevor vs Notre Dame and count the number of drops. Seriously, just count 'em. Tell me what you come up with.

Love the kids mechanics. Looks like he's been very well coached.

Stands TALL in the pocket. Excellent "bounce." Ready to strike.

Gets the ball out fast! Very elusive and nimble for 6-6.

The kid has a serious arm! Can throw strikes on the move.

Hit's his receivers in the hands. Accurate.

Seriously looks the NFL prototype.

Video:

:36 escapes blitz sack pressure get's rid of the ball... blah

:55 deep sideline -- led WR to the outside -- looks as if WR lost ball and tracked inside... Insufficient data to fault Trevor... But I like the down field attacking...

1:13 ball out fast... hits the hands

1:23 quick out sideline +2 -- ball was off -- high behind (announcers proclaimed "great throw" I'd disagree)

1:35 sprint R looking downfield -- throw ball away. Easy to see no one open...

2:00 quick dump off +5

2:20: 3rd 7 attempts down the seam off target

3:09 ball high but catchable (broken up by db)

4:01 excellent deep ball for TD

4:46 ball out fast on target

5:26 as above

5:51 down field laser -- looks like a stud in the pocket. TALL. Excellent bounce.

6:19 perfect throw dropped TD -- in the hands.

8:28 down the seam strike in stride TD

8:43 out - excellent velocity + accuracy

9:00 another perfect strike...

9:28 perfect 50/50 ball. Out fast. Gave his receiver best chance. (I'd love to see that to Preston Williams BTW) TD. Receiver makes the play... Great catch.

10:50 laser over the middle. on target. +25

11:15 deflection. lucky no int

11:25 deep 50/50 ball. slight (8 inches maybe) under throw. Obvious PI IMO. Incomplete
>>> really like the way the kid challenges down field. Not afraid to let the pig fly.

11:31 quick out bang on a line hits the hands

11:45 sack. could have gotten the ball out. but slight nit pick

11:56 ball out quick flat too high a tad hot off the hands incomplete (obvious ball wobble
I think due to the rapid release -- worst throw so far IMO)

11:23 deep sideline (attacking again) - I love the placement -- receiver could have made a
great catch but not. DB had no chance. Couldn't tell if DB had hold on one hand? Receiver attempts 1 handed... incomplete.

12:36 quick out to slot. hits the hands leading him upfield

12:46 out fast -- hits the hands +5 all day

13:00 low throw off target

Bottom line to me. I see no reason why Tua and Trevor cannot BOTH be very successful in the NFL. Kind of like chocolate or vanilla IMO. It's your preference.

More detail: Trevor has the edge IMO in terms of "classic NFL pocket prototype -- the kid looks TALL in the pocket -- love his mechanics, excellent bounce and very fast release once he decides. I agree with those who say Tua has better anticipation and perhaps superior downfield accuracy -- but we're talking inches not miles here. Tua also gets the ball out fast and plays very quick mentally (though I have no info on how truly proficient either are pre-snap and post-snap reads -- they both seem "efficient."). I see no reason why either/both cannot be legit NFL "franchise" (hate the term) QBs. That said, I think they are both somewhat system dependent -- but who isn't? That's what good coaching is about...

I'll take either one and be VERY happy.

BNF

 

[Birdmond]

I like Fields a lot. More than Lawerence to be honest.

Fields kind of reminds of a much more athletic version of Dak Prescott.

 

[Jerrysanders]

Curious what you think Tua's (relative) weaknesses are, Slimm. I personally don't like the reckless way he throws his body around when he's scrambling. Too much Steve Young/Jim McMahon, not enough Russell Wilson.

He's also clearly not a gunslinger type in the Marino/Mahomes/Favre mold, but whether that's a weakness as compared to the more conservative style of players like Brady or Brees is obviously more of a personal taste thing than a strength/weakness. Lots of ways to do it well.

I actually believes he has a natural gunslinger mentality plays HI to Lo.

The majority of qbs would of moved on to Riggs #11 on that crosser.

 

[hoops]

I think so too, thought on his side arm or 3/4 quarters type of delivery.

Did you see Herbert Saturday ? lmao

The first 2 drives I was like my gosh is he physically gifted. But it didn’t take long for me to say there’s something missing between the ears. Still looks more athlete than qb. 4th year starter too so that’s a major red flag for me with regards to the switch coming on in the pros.

He will murder the workout and measurables side of things so I’m sure someone still is gonna run that card up and say they can “fix him”

Maybe they will blame the coaching he’s gotten at Oregon I don’t know. I just don’t see the development in the qb side of things. Athlete playing qb instead of qb who happens to be an athlete

I’m starting to full on believe that all that zone read and pistol ask is a product of his limitations as a player more than anything else

 

[hoops]

Based on what I've seen the only things I'd say Tua is clearly better are eye discipline and manipulations, accuracy on short throws, especially to the flats, reading defenses, and he does have a more accurate deep ball on film, but everything else like anticipation seems very close (maybe a slight advantage for Tua) throwing on the run looks to be a wash or Trevor looked slightly better which kind of surprised me but Tua was playing on 1 ankle for the majority of the season. The arm strength advantage definitely goes to Trevor the out route to the far side of the field, Trevor is flat out better. Clemson's offense is horrible for translating to NFL success but that's not a deal breaker considering he was the no. 1 pro style qb coming out of high school.

I don’t remember all that zone read and pistol from tbe college football playoffs last year. Seemed to me they relied less on his legs and more on his pocket play.

I thought he was damn good during that run. But I do agree that his WRs rescue some underthrown or poorly placed vertical passes by doing what slimm said “mossing it”

Even that deep ball this week he completed that balls underthrown and the wr hulk smashed the db.

But I also think he’s a 2nd year starter I don’t see why those things can’t improve with reps and time.

I did see one real nice lateral pocket shuffle play where he moved laterally to space all the while eyes downfield and hit an intermediate breaking route in tbe middle of the field. Really liked that play. That route takes time to free up vs that coverage and he didn’t just take off with it.

 

[Crump]

i watched about 50% of it, i know that doesnt cut it in discussions but i was on my phone, and now that im on my laptop i gotta start dinner soon. if you put a gun to my head and say one has to start for my team this year im going to have to go Tua. I think he could take advantage of the speed of grant and wilson (pray they havent lost it) and take advantage of when they have their man beat....or when they have their man beat...aka gotcha bitch or throwing them open ;-)

There is zero blame on him for this because you work with what you have and what you are told, but you can tell that Trevor loves throwing it up and letting his wr's make the plays. he still had nice throws, granted some of them were higher but that was the knock on him last year that some of his passes elevated. Flores would take Tua any day of the week i feel because i really dont see alot of mistakes with him. when i skipped around the one hour video, like i said it was dumb luck that i happened to mainly land on bad plays, but my week has been ****, so that'd be par for course for me. Flo or BB would have a **** fit with the throws TL makes despite the size advantage of WR.

You put TL on this team this year and he's mainly looking for jump balls to preston or devante and dont know if they are big boys enough to handle that. BUT that is what he is told to do and coached to do. we know that we have two burners, toasting your man is easier than the jump ball. i know anticipation throws are awesome for tua, but some of them were designed and like the pick 6, designed plays that are busted maybe you need to pull off of. (i also know designed plays dont always have the other wr's active so easier said that done)

It's also one of the reasons why i said i would enjoy watching the entire hour of Tua from last season with a case of beer saturday (prob be next sat) . i know what im looking at and for even if you dont fully agree with me and did spend alot of times with ECU's football squad as a sports med major back when they were good and had garrard throwing and Logan coaching. High school coaches even tried to pursuade me to go into a field where i could coach with the exception of i love money too much.

but watching tuas deep balls are a thing of beauty and the fact that he has the balls to take the shot is even better....like you said his biggest strength could be a big weakness but it is apparent. he does remind me alot of R Wilson who i wanted us to draft after watching years of him killing teams at State (i quit watching him once he went to Wisc) but his deep balls seem to be on a lazer.

Both QB's do what works in their system, i think thats a bonus for TT and a negative for TL. TL is going to be hell once he gets the ball down some and quits relying on his WR's to make the plays for him, but when your WR are locked up all the way downfield then thats what hes going to have to do, and you cant exactly throw the ball on a rope for a 50/50 ball.
regardless im going to make watching college football alot more of a priority this season...

FYI meant to type it early but with @BigNastyFish saying he had to come in peace after you bit his head off, i dont recall him ever shitting on bama. he's kind of like me, he hates everything but with a purpose :-)

 

[hoops]

I think they are both excellent prospects but tua has a natural feel for the position that I don’t think anyone comes close to. Nor do I think it’s a learned skill.

He plays the game like a qb. He thinks the game like a qb. And he executes at a rediculously high clip. And his mentality is high to low too. Assassine like.

I think he’s the best prospect since luck and luck didn’t have anyone to throw to down field in college short of tight ends and he never had this level placement consistency to any level.