Vernon Hargreaves III Tidbit | Page 2 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

Vernon Hargreaves III Tidbit

j-off-her-doll said:
Love VHIII, but there is a legitimate train of thought that he's not what Miami is looking for in a CB. If you're looking to run press, cover-2, Hargreaves can certainly play that, but is he a top-15 pick in that role? Ehhh . . .

If Miami is looking to run press, cover-2, it better add some more athleticism at LB.
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Eh, **** combine measurables. Dude can play CB better than any other by a long mile.

Wade Phillips: 'If a player doesn't fit your scheme, something's wrong with it'
 
Sons of Shula said:
Eh, **** combine measurables. Dude can play CB better than any other by a long mile.

Wade Phillips: 'If a player doesn't fit your scheme, something's wrong with it'
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He tested great. I love the guy. He's definitely one of the top 10 players in the draft. It's just a matter of, Is he worth the investment given the scheme? In a press, cover-2, you'd like bigger CB's, but you're also asking a LOT LESS of your CB's. Vance Joseph made mention of taking pressure off his DB's in the video that Walrus (I believe) posted. Take Seattle and Carolina. Those are D's that operate similar to our vision. With Kuechly and Davis on the roster, and a bunch of journeymen at DB, Carolina drafted a LB in the 1st RD. Seattle drafted Irvin in the 1st and Wagner in the 2nd. Accounting for both teams, Earl Thomas is the only DB drafted in the 1st - FS (by said teams). Because those teams don't ask too much of their CB's, they're able to get specific types that are of no value to teams that ask more of their CB's. Agility is typically a crucial trait (something Hargreaves has in spades), but when you limit the lateral movement of your CB's (press Cover-2, 3, or 4), it becomes less important.

So, it's not that the scheme can't accommodate Hargreaves; it's that Hargreaves strengths would more readily come to light in man or off-zone schemes. In Arizona, Patrick Peterson is more valuable than Luke Kuechly would be; in Denver, Aqib Talib is more valuable than Kueckly would be, but in Carolina or Seattle, Kuechly would be much more valuable than any CB - including Richard Sherman (great as Sherman is) or Josh Norman.
 
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j-off-her-doll said:
He tested great. I love the guy. He's definitely one of the top 10 players in the draft. It's just a matter of, Is he worth the investment given the scheme? In a press, cover-2, you'd like bigger CB's, but you're also asking a LOT LESS of your CB's. Vance Joseph made mention of taking pressure off his DB's in the video that Walrus (I believe) posted. Take Seattle and Carolina. Those are D's that operate similar to our vision. With Kuechly and Davis on the roster, and a bunch of journeymen at DB, Carolina drafted a LB in the 1st RD. Seattle drafted Irvin in the 1st and Wagner in the 2nd. Accounting for both teams, Earl Thomas is the only DB drafted in the 1st - FS (by said teams). Because those teams don't ask too much of their CB's, they're able to get specific types that are of no value to teams that ask more of their CB's. Agility is typically a crucial trait (something Hargreaves has in spades), but when you limit the lateral movement of your CB's (press Cover-2, 3, or 4), it becomes less important.
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VJ ran about an even 50/50 press vs man last year and a variety of coverage shells. VJ also coaches press 2-3 yards off the LOS and not at the physical jam at the LOS like Seattle uses.

My measurables reference was to his height, not his skill testing, FWIW.
 
Sons of Shula said:
Eh, **** combine measurables. Dude can play CB better than any other by a long mile.

Wade Phillips: 'If a player doesn't fit your scheme, something's wrong with it'
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Agree and disagree but mostly agreeing ;)

Until they actually start drafting players, anyone can fit the scheme. We don't know who fits or not and are guessing based on a couple of things the coaches have said.

Disagree on "**** measurables"
Every Pro Bowl CB in the last five years has an arm length of 32" or more.
 
Sons of Shula said:
VJ ran about an even 50/50 press vs man last year and a variety of coverage shells. VJ also coaches press 2-3 yards off the LOS and not at the physical jam at the LOS like Seattle uses.

My measureables reference was to his height, not his skill tests, FWIW.
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It's a matter of the value of the position. If you're asking your CB's to do less, they're less valuable, because you can use a wider group to do the same job. Also, as you know, college is different from the NFL, and his size is not ideal for press, cover-2 in the NFL. I have no doubt that Hargreaves would play well, but the devaluation of the position (because of scheme), and him being less than ideal for the scheme, makes me press pause on the pick. You don't need 1st RD CB's in a press, cover-2. You need 1st and 2nd RD LB's. I'm in no way knocking Hargreaves.
 
j-off-her-doll said:
It's a matter of the value of the position. If you're asking your CB's to do less, they're less valuable, because you can use a wider group to do the same job. Also, as you know, college is different from the NFL, and his size is not ideal for press, cover-2 in the NFL. I have no doubt that Hargreaves would play well, but the devaluation of the position (because of scheme), and him being less than ideal for the scheme, makes me press pause on the pick. You don't need 1st RD CB's in a press, cover-2. You need 1st and 2nd RD LB's. I'm in no way knocking Hargreaves.
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Vance Joseph is also very well known for playing a safety in the box. We now have two S that do that very well, so my thoughts on a true C2 shell I have to question as well as playing a true press technique that would rule out such great talent in VH3.

We also don't have the luxury of having a S2S FS to run press all day.
 
j-off-her-doll said:
It's a matter of the value of the position. If you're asking your CB's to do less, they're less valuable, because you can use a wider group to do the same job. Also, as you know, college is different from the NFL, and his size is not ideal for press, cover-2 in the NFL. I have no doubt that Hargreaves would play well, but the devaluation of the position (because of scheme), and him being less than ideal for the scheme, makes me press pause on the pick. You don't need 1st RD CB's in a press, cover-2. You need 1st and 2nd RD LB's. I'm in no way knocking Hargreaves.
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You're the GM and the Dolphins are on the clock at 13. Who are you picking?
 
cafinfan408 said:
Lee or Apple
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Honestly don't get the first-round hype for Apple. Solid CB but nowhere near a top 20 talent, which is what I would spend the first on.

Find a scheme-specific CB later in the draft like James Bradberry.
 
j-off-her-doll said:
He tested great. I love the guy. He's definitely one of the top 10 players in the draft. It's just a matter of, Is he worth the investment given the scheme? In a press, cover-2, you'd like bigger CB's, but you're also asking a LOT LESS of your CB's. Vance Joseph made mention of taking pressure off his DB's in the video that Walrus (I believe) posted. Take Seattle and Carolina. Those are D's that operate similar to our vision. With Kuechly and Davis on the roster, and a bunch of journeymen at DB, Carolina drafted a LB in the 1st RD. Seattle drafted Irvin in the 1st and Wagner in the 2nd. Accounting for both teams, Earl Thomas is the only DB drafted in the 1st - FS (by said teams). Because those teams don't ask too much of their CB's, they're able to get specific types that are of no value to teams that ask more of their CB's. Agility is typically a crucial trait (something Hargreaves has in spades), but when you limit the lateral movement of your CB's (press Cover-2, 3, or 4), it becomes less important.

So, it's not that the scheme can't accommodate Hargreaves; it's that Hargreaves strengths would more readily come to light in a man or off-zone schemes. In Arizona, Patrick Peterson is more valuable than Luke Kuechly would be; in Denver, Aqib Talib is more valuable than Kueckly would be, but in Carolina or Seattle, Kuechly would be much more valuable than any CB - including Richard Sherman (great as Sherman is) or Josh Norman.
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I feel like posts like these are classic examples of why we over complicate things. Bringing up keuchly and Davis are legit in relation to the D but do we have even one of those guys? And do we wait to get one before drafting a desperately needed, scheme versatile corner? Are 4-3 lbers now the barometer for settling on a more important position? Comparisons like that are always hard (even harder when guys like us are depending on tape without ever talking with them face to face to figure out what a potential disaster they really are), but don't lump us in with the teams that seem to know they're ass from they're elbow. Use the first round pick on the potential difference makers and let the rest fall into place, without having to make excuses for why our defunct team can't seem to get it right.

Fairly confident there are no keuchlys or davis' s in this class - both legit top 20 picks. Does it benefit us to pass on Hargreaves because our lbers are second rate? Draft the guy that's ready to step in and fix the problem then we can stop manufacturing excuses for why we bottom feed
 
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Phinsfan93 said:
You're the GM and the Dolphins are on the clock at 13. Who are you picking?
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I don't know who will be available, and Hargreaves should be gone by the pick, but I'd go Darron Lee. Very good player, just getting better, and he has the range Miami needs at LB.
 
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