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Maybe just me but ain't nobody EVER gonna confuse
stick man
with MEGATRON!
stick man
with MEGATRON!
Very tough call facing Miami Dolphins as the DeVonta Smith/Ja’Marr Chase debate rages
- Thread starter AL R
- Start date
I wasn't so much argueing your examples of how a "stud, WR can affect an offense. I have absolutely no disagreement there.
My problem is that I don't see that type of player, either physically, or otherwise in the top of this years draft, thus my stance on the comparison.
Do you honestly feel any of the top prospects this year have a likelihood of being in the class of the guys you mentioned? Green possibly, but the other three?
That's a leap I just can't make brother.
That's the thing. CJ at #3? Sign me up. jJ at #3? Yeah, I can get on board.
None of these guys are that level, IMO.
juniorseau55
Go Fins
It appears it has become common for people to pop the name Calvin Johnson or insert "unique talent we never seen now, or since then" into the equation of receivers in this draft. End of the day we don't even know if any of these players will ever be good in the pro's until we start seeing them play in the pro's.
It does happen.
In the specific case of CJ (sadly, having grown up in MI, the Lions are like my illegitimate bastard offspring), he was a very unique physical freak. In his prime, he was basically uncoverable, without straight up double teams. Unfortunately, the rest of the team blew so badly that there was no need for a decent defense to do anything else.
I just don't see that type of player here. I could be wrong, but not likely.
juniorseau55
Go Fins
Hard to see a man thats almost 6'6 run like a 5'10 guy, and fight of linebackers as if they were db's.
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...add it's glaringly obvious!
dagger151
Club Member
We absolutley have to trade down. Wideouts dont touch the ball enough to warrant a #3 pick unless they are Megatron. Id much rather have the best available of Waddle,Chase, Smith, or Pitts and still get at least another 2nd to move back, than just take my favorite of the bunch at 3. Nobody knows who will ultimately be the best of the group right now, its mostly a crapshoot.
This years draft there are actually several high rated QBs and enough QB needy teams to promote a trade up. You can book it that someone is coming up to 3 for one of those QBs and we should take the best comp we can get as long as the pick stays in the top 10.
This years draft there are actually several high rated QBs and enough QB needy teams to promote a trade up. You can book it that someone is coming up to 3 for one of those QBs and we should take the best comp we can get as long as the pick stays in the top 10.
Feverdream
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All three of the players that you listed had one thing in common... something this year's crop lacks... size.
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Smith or Chase being in the class of Rice, Moss, Johnson? Not likely. But that is true of every WR and player in every draft. A lot has to go right for a player to be an all time great, regardless of talent...great organization, coaches, surrounding talent, health, luck, work ethic, maturity, discipline, determination, etc.
The player that I see with the best chance of being an all-time great relative to their position is Sewell. I think Lawrence is going to be very good, but an all-time great? Not likely. Could Lawrence be? Sure, but all would have to go right.
I thought Andrew Luck would be, but going to a team with a poor OL and being too damn competitive and tough for his own good willing to take hit after hit ended that possibility. Some of the things that made him great when he was healthy led to a short career. Had he gone to a team with good OL his career most likely would have played out differently. But that wasn't reality.
Given this draft and Miami's needs I only see a few players at the top of their big board. Smith, Chase, and Sewell. I assume Boyer is in Grier and Flo's ears about how good the defense could be with Parsons as well.
Those are the 4 that I see being a legitimate possibility for being drafted with Miami's top pick. I would be okay with either one of those 4. Grier/Flo have earned my trust. Could they go Pitts or Waddle? It is possible.
Back to the question. Although I think the likelihood either Smith and Chase won't be an all-time NFL great at WR, I think there is a real chance they could be an all-time Miami Dolphin great WR along with Warfield, Clayton and Duper. I would not be surprised to see either make several All Pro teams and 5-7 pro bowls.
I would not be surprised to see either of those players help Tua make a big jump in 2021. I would not be surprised to see either of those receivers amass over 1,000 yards and 10 or so TDs in their rookie year. I would not be surprised to see that every week they have the talent to convert 2 or 3 first downs on 3rd down when there is not another Dolphin WR that could consistently make those plays, other than if Parker is healthy. A big if. I would not be surprised if looking back at the end of their career Dolphin fans, assuming they play the majority of their careers as Dolphins, could look back and see 2-4 wins each year that could be directly related to that receiver having a huge game and making key plays significantly contributing to the win.
I would call any WR that is able to do those things listed above difference makers. And I would be more than okay with Miami spending the 3rd pick or wherever they end up picking first if they trade down on Smith or Chase.
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No denying Megatron was a beast. I loved watching him play.
Chase measures up well in comparison to Rice, Moss and Green being 6'0" and 208 lbs and that was as at 19 or 20 years old. I have seen him listed at 6’1” as well. I haven't seen any updates recently, but not uncommon for a kid to continue to grow in early 20s. This is from July 2020 so not sure what his measurables stand at now:
19. Ja’Marr Chase, LSU, wide receiver
Freakiest attribute: Separating strengthThe Biletnikoff Award winner as the nation’s top wideout, Chase has incredibly strong hands and a powerful lower body, which make him virtually uncoverable. Just ask Clemson. He has continued to get much faster since coming to LSU, clocking a 4.40 at 6-0, 208 pounds. He’s also power cleaned 330 pounds this off-season. “He’s special,” LSU coach Ed Orgeron said. “He’s such a stud. He has worked his butt off. He is so strong and the way he can come in and out of his breaks, running full speed, putting his foot in the grass, turning and catching the ball, guys have never seen someone do it like he can.”
Bruce Feldman’s 2020 college football Freaks List
Counting down the most remarkable athletes and athletic achievements among the 2020 college football crop.
theathletic.com
Jerry Rice 6'2" 200lbs ran a 4.59 at combine. Randy Moss measured in at 6'3.6" 194 lbs. AJ Green 6'3 and 5/8" 211 lbs.
Where Chase stands out is his ability to track the back and adjust to the ball. He snatched several interceptions away from defenders in 2019. Did it in the Alabama game turning it into a TD. Chase can go up and get the football like a taller WR with excellent body control.
Smith obviously is light, no denying that. Marvin Harrison weighed in at 181 at the combine and Tyreke Hill 185 on his pro day. So lighter receivers can be effective. Smith is 6'1" with 78 inch wingspan that allows him to play like a 6'3" WR. And he has great hands, 9 3/8", only dropping two passes last year on 117 catches. His big paws devour the ball.
I am not saying Smith or Chase will be at the same level of Rice, Moss, Johnson. I was responding to a post that said WRs are not difference makers and specifically referred to Calvin Johnson as evidence. I differed in opinion and gave those examples as to how they can.
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Dthrill_08
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Why not Draft Pitts. He seems closer to Megatron than the other 3.
If it were Megatron then for sure you draft him at 3 but these WR don't seem worthy of a top 5 pick to me at least. A trade down and hope they drop is the best option IMO.
If it were Megatron then for sure you draft him at 3 but these WR don't seem worthy of a top 5 pick to me at least. A trade down and hope they drop is the best option IMO.
Feverdream
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I posted a story about Jerry Rice's combine some weeks back... it was the first one that they ever had... and it was on grass as the sun was setting... LOL. The story is out there somewhere. I think it was in Indy, if I remember right. Google Jerry Rice and combine... it's pretty funny.No denying Megatron was a beast. I loved watching him play.
Chase measures up well in comparison to Rice, Moss and Green being 6'0" and 208 lbs and that was as at 19 or 20 years old. I have seen him listed at 6’1” as well. I haven't seen any updates recently, but not uncommon for a kid to continue to grow in early 20s. This is from July 2020 so not sure what his measurables stand at now:
19. Ja’Marr Chase, LSU, wide receiver
Freakiest attribute: Separating strength
The Biletnikoff Award winner as the nation’s top wideout, Chase has incredibly strong hands and a powerful lower body, which make him virtually uncoverable. Just ask Clemson. He has continued to get much faster since coming to LSU, clocking a 4.40 at 6-0, 208 pounds. He’s also power cleaned 330 pounds this off-season. “He’s special,” LSU coach Ed Orgeron said. “He’s such a stud. He has worked his butt off. He is so strong and the way he can come in and out of his breaks, running full speed, putting his foot in the grass, turning and catching the ball, guys have never seen someone do it like he can.”
Bruce Feldman’s 2020 college football Freaks List
Counting down the most remarkable athletes and athletic achievements among the 2020 college football crop.
Jerry Rice 6'2" 200lbs ran a 4.59 at combine. Randy Moss measured in at 6'3.6" 194 lbs. AJ Green 6'3 and 5/8" 211 lbs.
Where Chase stands out is his ability to track the back and adjust to the ball. He snatched several interceptions away from defenders in 2019. Did it in the Alabama game turning it into a TD. Chase can go up and get the football like a taller WR with excellent body control.
Smith obviously is light, no denying that. Marvin Harrison weighed in at 181 at the combine and Tyreke Hill 185 on his pro day. So lighter receivers can be effective. Smith is 6'1" with 78 inch wingspan that allows him to play like a 6'3" WR. And he has great hands, 9 3/8", only dropping two passes last year on 117 catches. His big paws devour the ball.
I am not saying Smith or Chase will be at the same level of Rice, Moss, Johnson. I was responding to a post that said WRs are not difference makers and specifically referred to Calvin Johnson as evidence. I differed in opinion and gave those examples as to how they can.
Rice was the shortest of the great ones, but he was also very early into the passing era. If he had played ten years before, he might have been Paul Warfield and rarely saw the ball. Still... he was the greatest.
The guys in this era that do the best are the tall guys who can run. They can lean into you and have great wingspan... if they are fast enough to get open, even better.
I like Chase quite a bit better than I like the diminutive Devonte Smith... and while Chase may project as a Marvin Harrison type if he goes to the right team... he could end up being good, rather than great though. I'd be reluctant to take him in the top ten.
Smith? I know they swear he can play slot or flank, but until he proves that he can beat the NFL press against 27 year old 200 pound CBs, I think he's a slot that you can move to the outside for some of his downs. I think he is one of the riskiest picks in the entire draft because of where he'll be selected... If he was projected to be a second day guy... then OK.
So... I like Chase, but I don't love him... Smith, to me, is a 'let some other GM take the risk' player. Of the power three... I like Waddle the best, if for no other reason, you know what you are getting-- a pure slot receiver with some dynamic movement skills. If he falls to 18, I'd strongly consider him, but I think that it's high for a slot receiver. He's a NEED based pick, not a size/speed pick for me. Tua NEEDS a guy like Waddle... desperately.
In the long run, I'd be much happier selecting WRs in the second round... even taking them back to back, because I think these guys may end up being better than the top names, at about 1/4 the draft points cost.
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This is a great conversation and debate. A few thoughts:
1) DeVonta Smith is virtually uncoverable. I don’t care about how much of a “specimen” he is. He’s not injury prone, and he always shows up in big games.
2 “You don’t take a WR at #3 unless he’s Calvin Johnson.” Okay, then who? Sewell? Sure, because he’s a “generational” tackle, right? Except that half the board will lose their minds because the Dolphins need playmakers. How about Pitts? “Generational” TE, right? Expect that “you don’t take a TE that high,” and half the board will lose its mind. The only thing I’m pretty sure about is that half of this board is going to be unhappy with whoever Miami picks.
3) “Draft value” is pretty much out the window with Miami this year, because they have four picks in the top 50. With the exception of Trevor Lawrence, they legitimately have a shot at pretty much anyone in the draft, depending on what the Jets do. I’d prefer a trade-down and picking one of Smith/Chase/Waddle after said trade, but a few things have to fall in line for that to happen. And, of course, it ain’t up to me. Miami could very well say “#### it, we’ve decided we want Smith and Harris in the first round, and we’re calling it a night.” If they do? It would be difficult to make an argument that they screwed up...at least until the first play of the first game. Then the bitching can begin.
1) DeVonta Smith is virtually uncoverable. I don’t care about how much of a “specimen” he is. He’s not injury prone, and he always shows up in big games.
2 “You don’t take a WR at #3 unless he’s Calvin Johnson.” Okay, then who? Sewell? Sure, because he’s a “generational” tackle, right? Except that half the board will lose their minds because the Dolphins need playmakers. How about Pitts? “Generational” TE, right? Expect that “you don’t take a TE that high,” and half the board will lose its mind. The only thing I’m pretty sure about is that half of this board is going to be unhappy with whoever Miami picks.
3) “Draft value” is pretty much out the window with Miami this year, because they have four picks in the top 50. With the exception of Trevor Lawrence, they legitimately have a shot at pretty much anyone in the draft, depending on what the Jets do. I’d prefer a trade-down and picking one of Smith/Chase/Waddle after said trade, but a few things have to fall in line for that to happen. And, of course, it ain’t up to me. Miami could very well say “#### it, we’ve decided we want Smith and Harris in the first round, and we’re calling it a night.” If they do? It would be difficult to make an argument that they screwed up...at least until the first play of the first game. Then the bitching can begin.