Vince Young's Wonderlick Score

[Mile High Fin]

thanks :)


yes. this myth that o-linemen just react to what the defensive linemen do is very unfounded. there's a lot that goes into. and that's just pass-blocking.

You're correct...

I remember reading somewhere (somewhat recently) that the Center knows the playbook/calls/audibles/etc better than anyone on the field (other than QB). :eek:

There's a lot of thinking that O-Linemen do.....calling assignments, recognizing blitzes, stunts, audibles, etc. Their assignments can change with each of these things.....
If they have a blown assignment (block the wrong guy on audible or stunt/fail to recognize blitz/etc), the play is usually a bust...

Granted, Center is more cerebral than the Guards & Tackles, but they need to know a lot too....

 

[Mile High Fin]

I asked you for what type of thinking is involved. Calling me ignorant does not illustrate how offensive linemen need to be intelligent.

I agree with basically everything you're saying about the Wonderlic test and results/assessment...

But you're incorrect about O-Linemen not needing "smarts".
Yes, there's always exceptions, and of course strength/size is a BIG factor, but usually the best linemen have SIZE & SMARTS.

It is important for them too (more for Center obviously).

Actually, I've read that the position needing the LEAST smarts is DE (followed by RB & Guard & FB).

Smarts helps ALL players, regardless of position. But DE is the least important position to need smarts....

 

[Motion]

Makes you wonder how Seth McKinney was ever a starter!

 

[flintsilver7]

you will find more 7th round picks and undrafted free agents starting on the o-line than in any other position. the reason is simple; coming out of college they didn't have prototypical size, or they didn't have the proper technique or whatever. however they made it starting in the league because of their intelligence. they have to make decisions on the fly based on what the defense is showing, and all 5 have to be in sync with this to work. the center will often call out assignments, and like with the colts, the QB can get extremely involved. and the technique is unreal. you can't just put a big guy in there and expect him to block. if you did that, there'd be 20 sacks a game. most coaches in the NFL will tell you it's the most technique-demanding position. there's more smarts involved than brute strength, which is why someone like tony mandarich was a bust.

Linemen make up 45% of the offense, so I would expect this. Typically, skill position players are drafted in the early rounds. Miami's offensive line improved immensely from last year to this year, and I would say that's because they were better coached rather than they got more intelligent.

Linemen typically are the smartest - in terms of GPA, Wonderlic tests, and so on - but their positions do not require an incredible amount of thought. Suppose a center calls out an assignment. This assumes that the player he's yelling to is oblivious to the defensive formation and was completely unable to pick out what he's supposed to do. The vast majority of formations involve the offensive line attempting to block the defensive line. The left tackle on a passing play typically has to block the right end. If it's a screen, block and release. If it's a running play, push the guy forward away from where the ball carrier is supposed to go. It's not overly complicated.

I have seen nothing to show me that offensive linemen defensively have a lot of dynamic thought and decision making to do. I see plenty of articles referring to offensive linemen being the smartest people on the field, but I don't see anything to indicate why what they do on the field requires that much intelligence. Picking up a blitz is an example I hear many, many times. What can a lineman do about a blitz? Often, nothing. A blitz brings more people than the standard rush. A lineman certainly shouldn't be shedding his assignment for a blitzer. If a blitzer comes in, he comes in - and somebody should be open. Blocking, as you said, depends a lot on technique. This is true. However, I make the claim that technique is not representative of decision-making ability.

 

[flintsilver7]

I agree with basically everything you're saying about the Wonderlic test and results/assessment...

But you're incorrect about O-Linemen not needing "smarts".
Yes, there's always exceptions, and of course strength/size is a BIG factor, but usually the best linemen have SIZE & SMARTS.

It is important for them too (more for Center obviously).

Actually, I've read that the position needing the LEAST smarts is DE (followed by RB & Guard & FB).

Smarts helps ALL players, regardless of position. But DE is the least important position to need smarts....

I disagree in that if defensive end requires next to no smarts, then neither does offensive line. A defensive end has the opposite priorities of an offensive tackle. They too need to recognize blocking schemes, offensive audibles, passing plays, screens, run plays, designed quarterback runs, and so forth. A defensive end can't simply charge at the quarterback.

 

[flintsilver7]

You're correct...

I remember reading somewhere (somewhat recently) that the Center knows the playbook/calls/audibles/etc better than anyone on the field (other than QB). :eek:

There's a lot of thinking that O-Linemen do.....calling assignments, recognizing blitzes, stunts, audibles, etc. Their assignments can change with each of these things.....
If they have a blown assignment (block the wrong guy on audible or stunt/fail to recognize blitz/etc), the play is usually a bust...

Granted, Center is more cerebral than the Guards & Tackles, but they need to know a lot too....

Can you give me an example of any of these? Everybody on the offense needs to know the playbook. Intuitively, I don't know why an offensive lineman's playbook would need to be more expansive than a receiver's, for example.

I don't believe that offensive linemen can change in response to blitzes, stunts, or audibles. Blitzes can be fairly obvious - if they are, then there's going to be more people rushing than the line can block. There isn't anything a lineman can do about this whether they recognize it or not. You don't need a Ph.D. to realize that if you're standing there on a blitz, you screwed up.

Defensive audibles play very little part in this. I don't see how they have this huge decision-making process. A zone blitz, for example, will bring one or two guys from a particular spot. There's a chance it's not the standard assignment - suppose a 3-4 DE drops into coverage (Aaron Smith has done this alot). Then Clark Haggans rushes from the OLB spot. It is generally designed so that the offensive line doesn't know who's rushing. In this case, a lineman is reactive in that he blocks whoever is rushing. If both guys are rushing, there isn't anything he can do about it. Though it is possible that both guys are staying back, that is defensively illogical.

Stunts also aren't recognizable unless the defensive linemen put down different hands or lean in different directions. Defensive linemen, for their part, frequently do this to confuse linemen. Stunts are simply designed to disrupt the line and break through - there isn't much complexity to it.

 

[Alex44]

Can you give me an example of any of these? Everybody on the offense needs to know the playbook. Intuitively, I don't know why an offensive lineman's playbook would need to be more expansive than a receiver's, for example.

.

Because there is a thing called a 'Passing Tree' which is bascially all the routes and each route has a number

Example play - Banana Split 842 Right

Banana Split is the formation, 8 is the reciever on the lefts route, 4 is the slot guy, 2 is the Right reciever

A reciever can basically listen to his assignment

For an offensive lineman its not like that you have to pick up and recognize a blitz, there is no number for that, only technique and smarts

 

[nick1]

Vince Young Part II
• Upon further review Vince Young did not score a 6 on the Wonderlic after all. It has now come out that his initial test was scored wrong, but rather than just score it correctly they allowed him to take it again and he came through with a 16.

he didn't get a 6, that was false info

 

[Alex44]

I don't believe that offensive linemen can change in response to blitzes, stunts, or audibles. Blitzes can be fairly obvious - if they are, then there's going to be more people rushing than the line can block. There isn't anything a lineman can do about this whether they recognize it or not. You don't need a Ph.D. to realize that if you're standing there on a blitz, you screwed up.

.

Left this out of my last post on accident

When there is a blitz it has to be recognized, who everyone blocks changes, the tackle hits the innermost player, the guard slides down one, and the center usually picks up the closest player to him, that way the outside guy is the one that comes free and allows more time for the QB

It also helps when the center sees the blitz and the QB is young and doesnt see it that way the center calls it out, and a younger QB can recognize it

Kevin Mawae (sp?) doesnt shut down Zach Thomas seemingly all the time due to just being strong

 

[HysterikiLL]

Has anyone noted that they screwed up his results and he actually got a 16, and because of the screw up, they're letting him take the test again?

16 was better than Marino, so will this dissolve the haters somewhat from this thread?

 

[flintsilver7]

Left this out of my last post on accident

When there is a blitz it has to be recognized, who everyone blocks changes, the tackle hits the innermost player, the guard slides down one, and the center usually picks up the closest player to him, that way the outside guy is the one that comes free and allows more time for the QB

It also helps when the center sees the blitz and the QB is young and doesnt see it that way the center calls it out, and a younger QB can recognize it

Kevin Mawae (sp?) doesnt shut down Zach Thomas seemingly all the time due to just being strong

What you suggested about a blitz is only partly true. Assume, as you must, that a defense is completely transparent and shows plainly its blitz package. This means it's likely an edge nickel, 5-2, or some other such formation with extra players on or near the line of scrimmage. If it is this obvious, then changing assignments (all of a whopping one adjacent player, by the way), might help mitigate the blitz. However, the job of picking up a blitz often falls to the tight end or running back as by definition a blitz brings an additional rusher. Also, reading a blitz is very difficult as a good defense should attempt to disguise its blitz packages as much as possible.

Whatever happened in the past with Zach Thomas and Kevin Mawae has nothing to do with the intelligence of Kevin Mawae.

 

[Alex44]

What you suggested about a blitz is only partly true. Assume, as you must, that a defense is completely transparent and shows plainly its blitz package. This means it's likely an edge nickel, 5-2, or some other such formation with extra players on or near the line of scrimmage. If it is this obvious, then changing assignments (all of a whopping one adjacent player, by the way), might help mitigate the blitz. However, the job of picking up a blitz often falls to the tight end or running back as by definition a blitz brings an additional rusher. Also, reading a blitz is very difficult as a good defense should attempt to disguise its blitz packages as much as possible.

Whatever happened in the past with Zach Thomas and Kevin Mawae has nothing to do with the intelligence of Kevin Mawae.

Thats where the linemans smarts come in, knowing a teams tendancies like do they blitz a lot, what the down and distance is, on tape did they blitz a lot on this down and distance

When you watch tapes where a QB gets hit very very hard, its usually because the tackle took the outside guy and the inside guy came flying through free, taking the inside guy usually also puts a linebacker or a secondary player for the running back to block, which is far easier for him than a DE, the problem with changing a TE to protection on a Blitz, is usually on a Blitz the TE is your hot read if you have a good recieving TE anyway

The Mawae thing was meant to say, his athleticism is what allows him to be able to pull on a run play and make a block on a linebacker

 

[flintsilver7]

Thats where the linemans smarts come in, knowing a teams tendancies like do they blitz a lot, what the down and distance is, on tape did they blitz a lot on this down and distance

When you watch tapes where a QB gets hit very very hard, its usually because the tackle took the outside guy and the inside guy came flying through free, taking the inside guy usually also puts a linebacker or a secondary player for the running back to block, which is far easier for him than a DE, the problem with changing a TE to protection on a Blitz, is usually on a Blitz the TE is your hot read if you have a good recieving TE anyway

The Mawae thing was meant to say, his athleticism is what allows him to be able to pull on a run play and make a block on a linebacker

Athleticism does not equal intelligence. Also, you don't need to be intelligent to answer a few simple questions such as "do they blitz alot?" and "what down and distance is it?" I don't believe that linemen spend time with game film analyzing what a team does on a particular down and distance. If anything, somebody from the booth will tell the quarterback and they'll relay it to the line. Besides, if they're so smart, they should be picking these things up dynamically anyway.

Hot reads wouldn't exist - and tight ends and running backs would never have to help block - if linemen were able to adjust to blitzes automatically. I still continue to make the claim that linemen frequently cannot do anything about a blitz, so whether they recognize it or not is irrelevant.

 

[Alex44]

Athleticism does not equal intelligence. Also, you don't need to be intelligent to answer a few simple questions such as "do they blitz alot?" and "what down and distance is it?" I don't believe that linemen spend time with game film analyzing what a team does on a particular down and distance. If anything, somebody from the booth will tell the quarterback and they'll relay it to the line. Besides, if they're so smart, they should be picking these things up dynamically anyway.

Hot reads wouldn't exist - and tight ends and running backs would never have to help block - if linemen were able to adjust to blitzes automatically. I still continue to make the claim that linemen frequently cannot do anything about a blitz, so whether they recognize it or not is irrelevant.

Well you said they were both unathletic and didnt need to be smart so im just making a point, I didnt say that being athletic means they are smart, just that they are athletic

You need to be smart enough to study the tape, and see their formations, how often they blitz, when they do it, and it could never be relayed to you on the spot, thats to much for everyone to remember

Picking up a blitz does not really mean you block everyone, it means you pick up enough people to buy your QB time, its very relivant ask a QB that gets knocked down repeatedly because the tackle doesnt adjust and takes the outside rusher instead so he gets sacked and hit every play

Im not saying they are the rocket scientists of the NFL, but the position takes far more smarts than your giving credit for

 

[flintsilver7]

Well you said they were both unathletic and didnt need to be smart so im just making a point, I didnt say that being athletic means they are smart, just that they are athletic

I never said they were unathletic, though I could see how what I said could be read that way. I did say (and I stick to) that they are the least athletic people on the field.

You need to be smart enough to study the tape, and see their formations, how often they blitz, when they do it, and it could never be relayed to you on the spot, thats to much for everyone to remember

Most quarterbacks don't even do that. But you think offensive linemen do? I doubt that.

Picking up a blitz does not really mean you block everyone, it means you pick up enough people to buy your QB time, its very relivant ask a QB that gets knocked down repeatedly because the tackle doesnt adjust and takes the outside rusher instead so he gets sacked and hit every play

Im not saying they are the rocket scientists of the NFL, but the position takes far more smarts than your giving credit for

I will say again that offensive linemen frequently need to block the guys that are their base assignments. Linemen generally do not have the opportunity to pick up blitzing defenders.

Ask David Carr if he gets sacked repeatedly because his linemen are not smart enough or because they simply don't have the talent. If it were simply a matter of blocking a different guy, the Texans would do substantially better.