What young quarterback has succeeded…. | Page 14 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

What young quarterback has succeeded….

Let me ask people who are down on Tua a few questions.

First, some facts. Tua is 23. He just finished the season ranked 15th out of all QBs in passer rating.

Now for my questions.

1. Do you think it is (a) reasonable and/or (b) likely that, as Tua ages and gains experience, he will improve as a quarterback over what he is today?

2. If your answer is no, can you think of many quarterbacks who maxed out at 23?

3. Do you think it is (a) reasonable and/or (b) likely that Tua’s numbers would improve if he played with an offensive line that was league average, instead of the worst in the NFL?

4. Do you think it is (a) reasonable and/or (b) likely that Tua’s numbers would improve if he played with a wide receiver group that was league average in separation, instead of worst in the league?

5. Do you think it is (a) reasonable and/or (b) likely that Tua’s numbers would improve if he played in an offense with a better playcaller than George Godsey?

6. If you think the answer to a lot of these questions is yes, don’t you see a fairly straight forward route for Tua to go from 15th best passer rating in the NFL to something significantly better than that? Say, pretty conservatively, Top 10? And if he’s Top 10 in the league in passer rating, isn’t that good enough to win?
 
The obsession with what his “ceiling” is hilarious. That isn’t going to determine whether you win a Super Bowl or not. We had Marino, who quite possibly had the highest peak at the position ever. Zero Super Bowls. Can Tua be a top half of league starter and can you win with him? I think so. Why? Already seen it.

The dolphins ability to properly build a team is going to help determine what the “ceiling” of Tua is in Miami. We scapegoated Tannehill for many years, and what happened when he got around some competence with the Titans? Exactly.

The Dolphins drafted Tua 5th overall. Either support it, or cry about it.
But you are the one crying about it no? I accepted it after week 5 or 6 this season. I would say its pretty important to know a guys ceiling, but thats just me.
 
When their offensive line has given up the most pressures in the NFL, and has a bottom 3 rushing offense?

Can anyone help me find one in NFL history?
Tua. His starting record is 13-8 and really 14-7 if you adjust for the Bills and Ravens games.
 
So the Chargers oline went from bad, to good in one offseason, while the Dolphins oline went from bad, to worse.
 
Let me ask people who are down on Tua a few questions.

First, some facts. Tua is 23. He just finished the season ranked 15th out of all QBs in passer rating.

Now for my questions.

1. Do you think it is (a) reasonable and/or (b) likely that, as Tua ages and gains experience, he will improve as a quarterback over what he is today?

2. If your answer is no, can you think of many quarterbacks who maxed out at 23?

3. Do you think it is (a) reasonable and/or (b) likely that Tua’s numbers would improve if he played with an offensive line that was league average, instead of the worst in the NFL?

4. Do you think it is (a) reasonable and/or (b) likely that Tua’s numbers would improve if he played with a wide receiver group that was league average in separation, instead of worst in the league?

5. Do you think it is (a) reasonable and/or (b) likely that Tua’s numbers would improve if he played in an offense with a better playcaller than George Godsey?

6. If you think the answer to a lot of these questions is yes, don’t you see a fairly straight forward route for Tua to go from 15th best passer rating in the NFL to something significantly better than that? Say, pretty conservatively, Top 10? And if he’s Top 10 in the league in passer rating, isn’t that good enough to win?
You’re only looking at numbers in terms of efficiency. Passer rating is way skewed towards that. Todays NFL requires volume. I don’t care if you have 100% completion percentage and no INTs on the season if you throw for 1300 yards and 12 TDs, but I bet that would be a damn good passer rating.

I don’t think it’s any more likely Tua will improve as he ages than any other young QB. So I don’t see how that’s relevant.

Yes, he would almost certainly play a lot better with better linemen and WRs, as would everyone. Pretty sure most all people take that into account in their evaluation. We’re not seeing elite talent, we’re not seeing him elevate people around him. Maybe you are, we’ll have to disagree on that if so. I am only seeing maybe a handful of plays that make me say “wow that’s something a special player does”.

The offense question is really the key. Did the offense hold Tua back, or was the offense built that way because Tua wasn’t good enough? Only time will tell, but sadly I’m leaning towards the former.
 
The obsession with what his “ceiling” is hilarious. That isn’t going to determine whether you win a Super Bowl or not. We had Marino, who quite possibly had the highest peak at the position ever. Zero Super Bowls. Can Tua be a top half of league starter and can you win with him? I think so. Why? Already seen it.

The dolphins ability to properly build a team is going to help determine what the “ceiling” of Tua is in Miami. We scapegoated Tannehill for many years, and what happened when he got around some competence with the Titans? Exactly.

The Dolphins drafted Tua 5th overall. Either support it, or cry about it.
That may all be well and true…but even so, why does all that mean we shouldn’t try to upgrade the QB position if we can (provided you believe he isn’t say top 10 at least)?
 
I already acknowledged I had the wrong years stats when I said that they were bottom 5. They were still bottom 10 in 2019 per the only stat that has been offered by anyone (which was by me of course).

What the hell do you even think you are arguing? Linemen who played well before a QB change still playing well after the change proves better QB play doesn’t inflate individual linemen grade? Lol that really what you’re saying?

You’re afraid to bet, is it because you don’t have the money? I apologize if so. Is it because you don’t support the site? Or are you scared that you’re wrong?
This has gone beyond comical and into annoying. You said the Bucs had poor pass blocking grades in 2019 under Jameis and high pass blocking grades in 2020 under Brady. In 2019 the entire interior of the line was top 2 in the NFL so they had nowhere to go and therefore you had to ignore that from your argument. They replaced one of their tackles with Wirfs who is great so you can't use that either. Like I said, if you're trying to make a point with only the 5th best lineman on the team, you're grasping at straws and you've already lost the argument.

Maybe pretending I don't have money can make your point have more validity in your eyes and not because I have better things to do than cross check the inevitable BS "data" that you may or may not find since your initial data set was turned into swiss cheese.
 
So the Chargers oline went from bad, to good in one offseason, while the Dolphins oline went from bad, to worse.
Imagine in 2019 after gutting the team that the line would somehow get even worse each consecutive season. That's amazing.
 
I believe a good QB can make a line look better. Rodgers definitely hasn't always had a great line. Good QB's can read the defense, see what's coming and change blocking schemes, audible to different plays, etc... That comes with time and experience. How do you think Brady always had great lines with bums off the street some years? Now I will say that the line looked better with Tua than Brissett. Maybe someone can check those stats.
It certainly helped that in those situations that the Packers and Patriots at least coached and developed their lines some. The Dolphins have been drafting and counting on first and second year lineman that were reaches and simply aren't given direction.
 
This has gone beyond comical and into annoying. You said the Bucs had poor pass blocking grades in 2019 under Jameis and high pass blocking grades in 2020 under Brady. In 2019 the entire interior of the line was top 2 in the NFL so they had nowhere to go and therefore you had to ignore that from your argument. They replaced one of their tackles with Wirfs who is great so you can't use that either. Like I said, if you're trying to make a point with only the 5th best lineman on the team, you're grasping at straws and you've already lost the argument.

Maybe pretending I don't have money can make your point have more validity in your eyes and not because I have better things to do than cross check the inevitable BS "data" that you may or may not find since your initial data set was turned into swiss cheese.
You are trying so hard to avoid the argument, that’s what is comical. My argument was never that the Bucs had a bottom 5 pass block rating in 2019. That is a stat I used to support my argument. My argument has always been that QB play will inflate pass block grades. You know that.

Stop being so sensitive. I didn’t imply you had no money. There were only 3 conceivable reasons you would be tucking your tail and running from the bet in my eyes, I named all of them and one was not having money.

My data hasn’t been torn to Swiss cheese lol. The only relevant data that has been provided is by me, showing the Bucs pass block stats being ranked bottom 10. And then they are ranked 4 this year. Showing that 3/5 of an o line graded well one year and then did it again next year does absolutely squat to disprove my argument. You’re just scared to lose and be proven objectively wrong.

Go ahead and explain how you have proven QB play doesn’t inflate o line grades and I will make a donation in your name.
 
You’re only looking at numbers in terms of efficiency. Passer rating is way skewed towards that. Todays NFL requires volume.
This is flat out false...

Hell the king of volume stats Herbert is sitting at home this weekend.
 
Clearly he doesn’t. He has succeeded with special teamers at receiver like Mack Hollins, Jakeem Grants, and Isiah Fords of the world. And a terrible oline and rushing offenses? Lol like why do y’all be lying?
If you call throwing for 200 yards a success for a top 5 draft pick then Idk what to tell ya man. he struggles against bad teams.
 
You are trying so hard to avoid the argument, that’s what is comical. My argument was never that the Bucs had a bottom 5 pass block rating in 2019. That is a stat I used to support my argument. My argument has always been that QB play will inflate pass block grades. You know that.

Stop being so sensitive. I didn’t imply you had no money. There were only 3 conceivable reasons you would be tucking your tail and running from the bet in my eyes, I named all of them and one was not having money.

My data hasn’t been torn to Swiss cheese lol. The only relevant data that has been provided is by me, showing the Bucs pass block stats being ranked bottom 10. And then they are ranked 4 this year. Showing that 3/5 of an o line graded well one year and then did it again next year does absolutely squat to disprove my argument. You’re just scared to lose and be proven objectively wrong.

Go ahead and explain how you have proven QB play doesn’t inflate o line grades and I will make a donation in your name.
You want me to spend time proving an antithesis to your original point? I'm still waiting for you to prove yours. You have one out of 5 players from 2019-2020 on the Bucs that may or may not have improved their pass block rankings.
 
For all the Tua haters here is a cold hard fact. The Dolphins o-line finished last in the league. That’s 32; and the fact that Tua made them almost look like somewhat of a line should be a testament to his ability…….. Mic Drop…….
Herbert's line was 32nd last year.
 
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