What young quarterback has succeeded….

[Kamelion4291]

I get all that... Its not rocket science... Lets forget QB for a second and focus on everything else on offense.

Worst ranked OL in the NFL
Worst running game in the NFL
Receivers bottom of the league at separation
Receivers 3rd to last in YAC
Receivers 3rd to last in drop%

Does this look like and offense that'll be in the top half of the league in scoring? Be honest...

Gotta give him time for the mental gymnastics to kick in to somehow blame all that on the QB.

 

[Jimi]

I get all that... Its not rocket science... Lets forget QB for a second and focus on everything else on offense.

Worst ranked OL in the NFL
Worst running game in the NFL
Receivers bottom of the league at separation
Receivers 3rd to last in YAC
Receivers 3rd to last in drop%

Does this look like and offense that'll be in the top half of the league in scoring? Be honest...

It’s a chicken and egg question, there is no obvious objectively correct answer, but the o line and running game are highly connected to QB play. Am I saying we’d have a top 10 o line and running game with a better QB? No. But would they have been a lot better than they were? I would argue absolutely.

Now the WR drops and separation are not connected to the QB. However, looking at the total drops by team, the 2nd most had 28 and the 20th most had 18. So it looks to me like the ranking isn’t all that useful if there isn’t much variance to begin with. I don’t have the separation stats but I’d be curious to see if the same variance issue is present.

I believe 100% an elite QB would have this offense in the top half of the league, even with all its warts. That’s just how much impact QBs have.

 

[Kamelion4291]

It’s a chicken and egg question, there is no obvious objectively correct answer, but the o line and running game are highly connected to QB play. Am I saying we’d have a top 10 o line and running game with a better QB? No. But would they have been a lot better than they were? I would argue absolutely.

Now the WR drops and separation are not connected to the QB. However, looking at the total drops by team, the 2nd most had 28 and the 20th most had 18. So it looks to me like the ranking isn’t all that useful if there isn’t much variance to begin with. I don’t have the separation stats but I’d be curious to see if the same variance issue is present.

I believe 100% an elite QB would have this offense in the top half of the league, even with all its warts. That’s just how much impact QBs have.

There it is. Didn't take long.

 

[Jimi]

Gotta give him time for the mental gymnastics to kick in to somehow blame all that on the QB.

I needed very little time, feel free to comment on my response. Or you can just keep D riding, whatever you prefer.

 

[Kamelion4291]

I needed very little time, feel free to comment on my response. Or you can just keep D riding, whatever you prefer.

What do you want me to comment on given that your entire response was just specious BS? You gave zero data. You're also ignoring that the Oline isn't being rated on sacks given up. It's rated the worst in years in the NFL because individually the lineman don't hold their blocks. They get beat. That's a completely independent statistical analysis on the Oline's capability. You trying to wedge that into a QB's impact is ignorance at best and malicious at worst.

 

[NBP81]

But would they have been a lot better than they were? I would argue absolutely.

But how? This OL had to hold their blocks the absolute least time in the whole NFL and still allowed the most pressures in the NFL... Outside of Tua wearing a jetpack and start flying around, how much more help could he have got them?

 

[Despacio]

All this back and forth bickering just shows me there’s too much grey to give a definitive answer on Tua. So a third season with healthy coaching and decent line/RB is warranted.

After watching Tannehill lead his team to the #1 seed without Henry for a lot of the time, do you really want to throw the kid away so soon after just 21 games?

 

[Jimi]

Then why is Brissett's sack rate more than 50% higher than Tua's?

Imagine showing up to a message board of the team you supposedly follow and have to try so desperately to make **** up to get your point across.

As for the offense being terrible, it was better than 10 other offenses in the NFL with the worst line by far and the averages being pulled down by Brissett starts. Wonder why...

Because Brisset sucks? That’s not the barometer I measure a 5th overall pick by…

What did I make up?

Speaking of making things up…in the 5 games in which Jacoby took the majority of snaps, his YPG is very similar. PPG is down, but I certainly think it’s worth noting 3 of his 5 games were against TB, BUF and Indy, and that the defense changed dramatically after his time there. So how exactly was he dragging the stats down?

 

[gofins60]

You mean like Tua did, still being effective enough to win many games, while having quite a few 100+ QB ratings games this year.

Though I'm not a Tua fan, this post isn't meant to bash him. Yes, Tua had a winning record, at one point was leading the league in completion percentage and had some high QB ratings. However, I want to say that you can't look at these stats and make any well-informed determination about Tua because these stats mean nothing without understanding the circumstances surrounding them.

Yes, Tua appeared to be effective even though he had no protection, a weak running game, and his WRs couldn't get separation. On one hand, that's impressive. On the other hand, that high completion rate was comprised of mostly short to intermediate passes which have a higher probability of being completed than deep passes. To me, a 100% completion rate would mean nothing if all of those passes were thrown to a WR on the line of scrimmage... IMO those would be "empty" stats. But to be fair to Tua, his overall completion rate should be even higher because Miami's receivers were among the worst when it comes to dropped passes. And his high QB ratings are also artificially inflated by all of those shorter passes, but on the plus side it also means he didn't throw too many INTs. Lastly, Tua should not get too much credit for his winning record, as that's a team stat. Truth be told, Miami didn't start winning until their defense woke up and started playing better. The defense carried this team last year and they did it again this year. When their offense can start scoring more points and can win shoot-outs even if the defense has a bad game, then the QB will deserve more credit.

Even though I'm not a fan, I do think that Tua deserves the chance to show what he can do behind a competent o-line with a strong running game, and with some WRs who can get separation. I want to see a "real" passing offense that can make plays all over the field, and not just dink-and-dunk their way downfield. Having the ability to score quickly when necessary is a must IMO. I also want to see Tua do a lot better when plays break down and he has to roll out and throw on the run. It seems to me that he has a problem throwing downfield if he can't stop and set his feet. But, if Tua is a "system" QB whose main strength is the short pass and he'd rather not go deep, then I hope they replace him!

 

[Jimi]

What do you want me to comment on given that your entire response was just specious BS? You gave zero data. You're also ignoring that the Oline isn't being rated on sacks given up. It's rated the worst in years in the NFL because individually the lineman don't hold their blocks. They get beat. That's a completely independent statistical analysis on the Oline's capability. You trying to wedge that into a QB's impact is ignorance at best and malicious at worst.

Yah, you’re showing your absolute ignorance on evaluating line play. The same line was getting “individually beat” like a drum less when Fitz was in than when Tua was in. The same linemen on the Bucs we’re getting “individually beat” like a drum until Brady showed up then all of a sudden they are winning all their individual matchups. Funny how that works.

My entire post was about how QB play and line play are correlated, which you don’t seem to grasp.

 

[Jimi]

But how? This OL had to hold their blocks the absolute least time in the whole NFL and still allowed the most pressures in the NFL... Outside of Tua wearing a jetpack and start flying around, how much more help could he have got them?

View attachment 91775

With all the things I mentioned previously - calling protections, better pre snap reads, getting through progressions faster, pocket movement etc etc

How do you explain the same linemen grading terribly with Jamies at QB grading near the top of the league with Brady at QB? That’s what I want to know.

 

[lynx]

Yah, you’re showing your absolute ignorance on evaluating line play. The same line was getting “individually beat” like a drum less when Fitz was in than when Tua was in. The same linemen on the Bucs we’re getting “individually beat” like a drum until Brady showed up then all of a sudden they are winning all their individual matchups. Funny how that works.

My entire post was about how QB play and line play are correlated, which you don’t seem to grasp.

Tristan Wirfs helped a lot

 

[Kamelion4291]

Yah, you’re showing your absolute ignorance on evaluating line play. The same line was getting “individually beat” like a drum less when Fitz was in than when Tua was in. The same linemen on the Bucs we’re getting “individually beat” like a drum until Brady showed up then all of a sudden they are winning all their individual matchups. Funny how that works.

My entire post was about how QB play and line play are correlated, which you don’t seem to grasp.

Are you honestly trying to make a point that the line holds their blocks better with a better QB? Or that the rankings are BS? Either one is wrong. Someone is going to run around Jesse Davis and blast the QB no matter if it's Tua or Brady.

Winning their individual matchup is just that, individual. It's independent of QBs.

 

[Jimi]

Tristan Wirfs helped a lot

Absolutely, but one rookie linemen does not bring an entire unit from near worst to near first.

And you can just look at individual PFF grades too if you want. The other 4 linemen all improved dramatically overnight. Donovan Smith looked like he didn’t belong in the league and now he’s a competent starter.

 

[NBP81]

With all the things I mentioned previously - calling protections, better pre snap reads, getting through progressions faster, pocket movement etc etc

How do you explain the same linemen grading terribly with Jamies at QB grading near the top of the league with Brady at QB? That’s what I want to know.

Can I see those grades?