Davone Bess is a Playmaker | Page 12 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

Davone Bess is a Playmaker

tylerdolphin said:
What youre doing is completely ignoring all the X's and O's of football and trying to turn it into something where the players can be easily defined statistically. You cant do that in football. I dont give a flying **** what win probability your stat says AJ Green adds. The undeniable fact is that when he steps onto the field, the defense is forced to acknowledge that and gameplans accordingly. Nobody is scared of Bess. Nobody. AJ Green adds a lot of "win probability" by simply being on the field and breathing. Bess doesnt. Your stat does not account for that. Sabermetrics for football players dont work.
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What your'e doing is saying I'm doing something I'm not. I'm simply saying Davone Bess makes plays that increase his team's probability of winning, and for that reason is a playmaker as I've defined it. You're the one taking that and panning back to make it sound like some kind of big-picture point is being made, and then trying to shoot it down. There's a term for that. It's called a straw man.
 
tylerdolphin said:
Of course. He is an average slot receiver. He makes some valuable plays. But you are making the argument that Bess is a better playmaker than some truly elite guys which is completely ridiculous and destroys all your credibility.
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Dude... what credibility? Saying he had some credibility destroys your credibility. :lol:
 
shouright said:
Also, don't forget that moving the chains is how you drive down the field to score. Is it any wonder that Davone Bess and Brandon Gibson have high WPAs when such a high percentage of their catches are for first downs? They're drive-sustainers.
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Sustaining drives for the juggernaut offenses they played for. You still havent answered why our offense was so stagnant despite having two of the 31 best playmakers at WR.
 
tylerdolphin said:
Of course. He is an average slot receiver. He makes some valuable plays. But you are making the argument that Bess is a better playmaker than some truly elite guys which is completely ridiculous and destroys all your credibility.
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Once again, I suspect you could learn something about which kinds of "plays" actually contribute to winning. I suspect your appraisal of that is far too narrow. You think winning is achieved via the play of the guys you think are good, whereas winning is actually achieved by not only that, but also by the kinds of plays Davone Bess and Brandon Gibson make on a routine basis.
 
shouright said:
What your'e doing is saying I'm doing something I'm not. I'm simply saying Davone Bess makes plays that increase his team's probability of winning, and for that reason is a playmaker as I've defined it. You're the one taking that and panning back to make it sound like some kind of big-picture point is being made, and then trying to shoot it down. There's a term for that. It's called a straw man.
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No, youre the one who said he is a better playmaker than Fitzgerald, AJ Green and others. You actually said that. Im attacking that, not a straw man.

Youre now just saying that Bess makes plays that help the team. Well no ****. He was on of our only viable options last year. He didnt have a choice.

---------- Post added at 10:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:43 PM ----------
shouright said:
Once again, I suspect you could learn something about which kinds of "plays" actually contribute to winning. I suspect your appraisal of that is far too narrow. You think winning is achieved via the play of the guys you think are good, whereas winning is actually achieved by not only that, but also by the kinds of plays Davone Bess and Brandon Gibson make on a routine basis.
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Well no ****. Of course they help. But to argue that they are on the level that you have claimed is simply asinine.
 
tylerdolphin said:
No, youre the one who said he is a better playmaker than Fitzgerald, AJ Green and others. You actually said that. Im attacking that, not a straw man.
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And you've done nothing objective to show that isn't the case, when "playmaker" is defined as making plays that increase a team's probability of winning. Again, I suspect you're hung up on the idea that "plays" are of only a certain kind, narrowing the range of what they are in reality.
 
shouright said:
And you've done nothing objective to show that isn't the case, when "playmaker" is defined as making plays that increase a team's probability of winning. Again, I suspect your hung up on the idea that "plays" are of only a certain kind, narrowing the range of what they are in reality.
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No, Im hung up on the fact that youre assuming your stat actually fully encompasses the whole picture of what youre trying to argue. Im also hung up on the fact that this stat gave the Dolphins two of the top 31 playmakers, yet the offense sucked.

Sabermetrics in football suck. There are far too many variables.

Obviously youre the smartest person on the planet and the only one that has figured out that players like Bess are actually better playmakers than the Greens, Fitzgeralds and Whites of the world though. Congrats.
 
He reminds of the kid who tries to sound smart by using all these big words that he doesn't even understand. It's sad really.

:bobdole:
 
tylerdolphin said:
No, Im hung up on the fact that youre assuming your stat actually fully encompasses the whole picture of what youre trying to argue. Im also hung up on the fact that this stat gave the Dolphins two of the top 31 playmakers, yet the offense sucked.
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Did you bother to check Tannehill's YPA? How about Fasano's? How about Bush's?

Notice two of those three guys have been shown the door, and the other was a rookie at a position where rookies typically play poorly.
 
shouright said:
Did you bother to check Tannehill's YPA? How about Fasano's? How about Bush's?
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Oh OK, let me guess...our offensive struggles are everyone else's fault except Bess and Hartline. Them being our two best WRs had nothing to do with it.
 
tylerdolphin said:
Oh OK, let me guess...our offensive struggles are everyone else's fault except Bess and Hartline. Them being our two best WRs had nothing to do with it.
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Well, where are Bess and Hartline, and where are Bush and Fasano?
 
Holy crap. This thread is *still* going on?

Almost an IM conversation at this point.
 
shouright said:
Well, where are Bess and Hartline, and where are Bush and Fasano?
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They are decent enough players, but literally everyone in the world except you knows they arent on the playmaking level they are touted to be at on that site.
 
tylerdolphin said:
They are decent enough players, but literally everyone in the world except you knows they arent on the playmaking level they are touted to be at on that site.
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Only if they believe "plays" come from of a far narrower range of play than is true in reality.
 
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