Jake Long... Don't worry

[PerfectTeam]

Your bang on there, that's why giving up 2 sacks in four years against high calibre talent = NFL starting LT. I thought you'd finally see it our way.

this makes sense how? I said his feet arent on the elite level and he has trouble with quick inside moves after a speed rush to the outside. Dont quite get your point here.

 

[rent this space]

definitely did not say they prove nothing. i just said they are not the end all be all. they prove or disprove whats on film. just like what i said about chris long, his athletic ability shows up on game tape and so did it at the combine. jake long, while athletic in shorts, did not show it as well on the tape, which is what i said.

could you also point out where i or gil brandt said chris long is perfect? brandt said he has no negatives which does not mean he is perfect. he just has no glaring weakness to work on in his game.

those reports were not invalid at the time, the information is pretty out dated. chris long proved on film how athletic he is. then he cemented it at the combine.

so what is it? he has no negatives or he has no glaring weakness? the latter implies that there are in fact weaknesses. that would be an agreement with my original statement that there are no players without question marks. some have smaller questions, but they are questions none the less.

if the reports I provided are so 'out of date'(6 weeks ago), could you please provide links to scouting reports that are new and dispell the old line of thinking in regards to Chris Long? if the combine is just 'part of the picture' how could it completely change the profile?

Gil Brandt is a respected voice, and is clearly on one side of the fence when it comes to Chris Long. I would say the sources I found are also respectable and contradict Gil Brandt. which point of view is correct? I don't know, you don't know, no one knows right now. I do know if Gil Brandt were 100% correct all the time, he wouldn't be writing for a magazine. I also would tend to agree with someone who isn't speaking in absolutes like "this guy has no negatives".

finally, by your logic, you could say the film showed Jake Long dominating speed rushers and his cone drill and 20 yard shuttle numbers comfirm his athletic ability. again, you can't have it both ways. it doesn't matter how many times you repeat it, if only one guy beat Jake Long for a sack in three years, there is no type of rusher that gives him trouble.

 

[PerfectTeam]

so what is it? he has no negatives or he has no glaring weakness? the latter implies that there are in fact weaknesses. that would be an agreement with my original statement that there are no players without question marks. some have smaller questions, but they are questions none the less.

if the reports I provided are so 'out of date'(6 weeks ago), could you please provide links to scouting reports that are new and dispell the old line of thinking in regards to Chris Long? if the combine is just 'part of the picture' how could it completely change the profile?

Gil Brandt is a respected voice, and is clearly on one side of the fence when it comes to Chris Long. I would say the sources I found are also respectable and contradict Gil Brandt. which point of view is correct? I don't know, you don't know, no one knows right now. I do know if Gil Brandt were 100% correct all the time, he wouldn't be writing for a magazine. I also would tend to agree with someone who isn't speaking in absolutes like "this guy has no negatives".

finally, by your logic, you could say the film showed Jake Long dominating speed rushers and his cone drill and 20 yard shuttle numbers comfirm his athletic ability. again, you can't have it both ways. it doesn't matter how many times you repeat it, if only one guy beat Jake Long for a sack in three years, there is no type of rusher that gives him trouble.

so are you trying to say that weaknesses and negatives are two different things? im pretty sure they are used in the same respect when your talking about football players so I dont get your logic there. Since chris long doesnt have a glaring weakness, it automatically proves your point of him having a question mark, but just a smaller one? Dont quite see your point.

here is one link with charlie casserly a very well respected GM talking about long. then again casserly is one guy, as your logic dictates so it doesnt hold any water. this would be directly from his pro day.

http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d80749f5e

what casserly says directly refutes what the supposed respected people in your links have to say. i dont think you will find to many people taking war room reports word over gil brandt and charlie casserly. my point wasnt that your reports were over six weeks old as you failed to see, but that they were written before the combine and pro days, with people questioning if the athletic ability on tape truly exists or if its high effort, motor type stuff.

i guess you havent seen enough film of jake long or read what people that know how to break down tape actually said. he could fend off pass rushers at the college level due to his long arms and strength. not his feet. find me a scouting report that says he has elite feet such as a joe thomas who graded out better than jake long and still couldnt go number one overall. on top of that, bill parcells had the chance to draft walter jones and orlando pace yet he didnt and picked up james farrior, a LB. if parcells passed on walter jones and orlando pace, two superior players compared to jake long coming out, what makes you think him and ireland are going to take a lesser player?
​

 

[Padfoot]

trust me so do i. with all the holes we have on this team, parcells and ireland are going to be building this team in their image, which is to build the defense first with big, athletic OLBs like Chris Long.

This is certainly a possibility. Parcells has stated that the Dolphins are the least talented team in the NFL. So he may just draft 100% BPA to pick up as much talent as possible.

The question is, how far is he willing to go for extra talent that he ignores need.

I would argue that while Chris Long may be the better player over Jake Long, Jake is a better combination of value and need for the Dolphins.

 

[PerfectTeam]

This is certainly a possibility. Parcells has stated that the Dolphins are the least talented team in the NFL. So he may just draft 100% BPA to pick up as much talent as possible.

The question is, how far is he willing to go for extra talent that he ignores need.

I would argue that while Chris Long may be the better player over Jake Long, Jake is a better combination of value and need for the Dolphins.

yea but you have to look at how parcells and ireland place value on positions. OT isnt as valued as say an OLB or DL. BP and JI place alot more value on the defensive side of the ball compared to the offensive side. look at their past drafts, how many times did they take an offensive player in the first round let alone an OT. The two highest picks were jacob rogers and james marten, a 2nd and 3rd round pick respectively. Look at the last few drafts and what positions were picked. OLB. demarcus ware, bobby carpenter and anthony spencer. they even signed one in akin ayodele and moved him inside. its just their philosophy to pick defense high and find steals for the offense from about the 3rd round on.

 

[PerfectTeam]

ill clarify even further on the glaring weaknesses or negatives as some people think they are different. chris long's hand usage is already on a pro bowl level compared to say vernon gholston and derrick harvey. so how is he supposed to improve on techniques when he already has better hand usage and technique than alot of nfl players. so he needs to work on his hips some. big deal seeing as how he isnt used in coverage all that much. then again weakness and negative are two different things in the nfl.

 

[Padfoot]

yea but you have to look at how parcells and ireland place value on positions. OT isnt as valued as say an OLB or DL. BP and JI place alot more value on the defensive side of the ball compared to the offensive side. look at their past drafts, how many times did they take an offensive player in the first round let alone an OT. The two highest picks were jacob rogers and james marten, a 2nd and 3rd round pick respectively. Look at the last few drafts and what positions were picked. OLB. demarcus ware, bobby carpenter and anthony spencer. they even signed one in akin ayodele and moved him inside. its just their philosophy to pick defense high and find steals for the offense from about the 3rd round on.

You may be right, but if that's indeed what they were planning, then I can't understand why they didn't go after any of the free agent offensive tackles, and why they were so aggressive in trying to sign Calvin Pace.

That points to Jake Long imo. They may have a history of drafting OLB's high but how many of their previous teams already had Jason Taylor and Joey Porter on the roster? They may be aging veterans but it's not like they have one foot in the grave. I just don't see how we can take an OLB unless we trade Jason Taylor. Yes, we're rebuilding, but Parcells always tries to win games.

 

[PerfectTeam]

You may be right, but if that's indeed what they were planning, then I can't understand why they didn't go after any of the free agent offensive tackles, and why they were so aggressive in trying to sign Calvin Pace.

That points to Jake Long imo. They may have a history of drafting OLB's high but how many of their previous teams already had Jason Taylor and Joey Porter on the roster? They may be aging veterans but it's not like they have one foot in the grave. I just don't see how we can take an OLB unless we trade Jason Taylor. Yes, we're rebuilding, but Parcells always tries to win games.

JT isnt that long for this team and neither is porter. plus they may try to move porter inside as parcells has done that a few times and conveyed that theory to alot of the coaches on the staff now. they also didnt need to draft anthony spencer or bobby carpenter but they did and they werent to bad at OLB. the calvin pace signing just points to their affinity to OLB and nothing more. had we signed calvin pace, JT probably would of been traded sooner rather than later which is still a distinct possibility.

plus what free agent tackles are there to sign? they are still talking to barry sims about coming in. other than him, i cant think of any other names. damien woody, but he is way past his prime and i dont know what the jets were thinking by giving him that much to play RT.

 

[Padfoot]

JT isnt that long for this team and neither is porter. plus they may try to move porter inside as parcells has done that a few times and conveyed that theory to alot of the coaches on the staff now. they also didnt need to draft anthony spencer or bobby carpenter but they did and they werent to bad at OLB. the calvin pace signing just points to their affinity to OLB and nothing more. had we signed calvin pace, JT probably would of been traded sooner rather than later which is still a distinct possibility.

plus what free agent tackles are there to sign? they are still talking to barry sims about coming in. other than him, i cant think of any other names. damien woody, but he is way past his prime and i dont know what the jets were thinking by giving him that much to play RT.

Personally, I'm not sold on the talk that JT and Porter are gone yet. It certainly makes sense to deal JT and dump Porter next year, but like I said, I'm not sold on it yet. If Parcells is so high on pass rushing OLB, why get rid of these guys, two of the very best at pass rushing. I know we're rebuilding but why not fill all the other myriad of holes first and let these guys tear it up in the 3-4 for three or four more years and then look to replace them?

 

[PerfectTeam]

Personally, I'm not sold on the talk that JT and Porter are gone yet. It certainly makes sense to deal JT and dump Porter next year, but like I said, I'm not sold on it yet. If Parcells is so high on pass rushing OLB, why get rid of these guys, two of the very best at pass rushing. I know we're rebuilding but why not fill all the other myriad of holes first and let these guys tear it up in the 3-4 for three or four more years and then look to replace them?

you may not be sold but thats whats going on. there is a reason the talk isnt going away, parcells and ireland are listening to offers and will pull the trigger when they get a decent one.

the reason to get rid of them is because one porter is a locker room problem that the new regime doesnt like. same reason they didnt resign hadnot. he ran his mouth to much. porter doesnt have three to four years of play left, maybe another year or two at best but he wont be here that long.

JT on the other hand may have another year or two of solid play in him but his skills are declining. Id rather trade him and get picks and let him try to compete for a super bowl. people close to him even said he wants out but doesnt want to look bad in the miami community.

 

[3rdandinches]

so are you trying to say that weaknesses and negatives are two different things? im pretty sure they are used in the same respect when your talking about football players so I dont get your logic there. Since chris long doesnt have a glaring weakness, it automatically proves your point of him having a question mark, but just a smaller one? Dont quite see your point.

here is one link with charlie casserly a very well respected GM talking about long. then again casserly is one guy, as your logic dictates so it doesnt hold any water. this would be directly from his pro day.

http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d80749f5e

what casserly says directly refutes what the supposed respected people in your links have to say. i dont think you will find to many people taking war room reports word over gil brandt and charlie casserly. my point wasnt that your reports were over six weeks old as you failed to see, but that they were written before the combine and pro days, with people questioning if the athletic ability on tape truly exists or if its high effort, motor type stuff.​

i guess you havent seen enough film of jake long or read what people that know how to break down tape actually said. he could fend off pass rushers at the college level due to his long arms and strength. not his feet. find me a scouting report that says he has elite feet such as a joe thomas who graded out better than jake long and still couldnt go number one overall. on top of that, bill parcells had the chance to draft walter jones and orlando pace yet he didnt and picked up james farrior, a LB. if parcells passed on walter jones and orlando pace, two superior players compared to jake long coming out, what makes you think him and ireland are going to take a lesser player?​

And why did he not pick them in the draft, because he was able to trade down a couple of times and pickup a tonne of draft picks. Do you think if he couldn't trade he'd still take Farrior or would he take the best player in Pace. I garrantee you he'll trade down in a heart beat, they've said it multiple times so that doesn't make C.Long any more the favourite than J.Long.

 

[rent this space]

ill clarify even further on the glaring weaknesses or negatives as some people think they are different. chris long's hand usage is already on a pro bowl level compared to say vernon gholston and derrick harvey. so how is he supposed to improve on techniques when he already has better hand usage and technique than alot of nfl players. so he needs to work on his hips some. big deal seeing as how he isnt used in coverage all that much. then again weakness and negative are two different things in the nfl.

my point that you just can't seem to understand is there are no players without questions, negatives, weaknesses or things that need improving. to me, they are all the same to varying degrees. they all come up on the negative side of a player profile. you are the one who first supplied a quote that said Chris Long had no negatives, then backpedaled and said there were no glaring weaknesses. those are your terms, not mine.
bottom line: Chris Long is very polished and NFL ready. he has very few things that he needs to improve. imo, that description also applies to Jake Long.
if we choose Chris Long and then find good linemen in later rounds, I would be happy with that. but, Jake Long is regarded as the best OT in this class and whoever is picked later won't be as NFL ready as he is. plus, if you look at our team in it's current state, we have a decent front seven with depth as is. how much of an impact can Chris Long make playing behind JT and JP? the offensive line, on the other hand, is missing two starters and needs at least two other players for depth. Jake Long would play from day one and I believe that is what you want from the #1 overall pick.

 

[PerfectTeam]

my point that you just can't seem to understand is there are no players without questions, negatives, weaknesses or things that need improving. to me, they are all the same to varying degrees. they all come up on the negative side of a player profile. you are the one who first supplied a quote that said Chris Long had no negatives, then backpedaled and said there were no glaring weaknesses. those are your terms, not mine.
bottom line: Chris Long is very polished and NFL ready. he has very few things that he needs to improve. imo, that description also applies to Jake Long.
if we choose Chris Long and then find good linemen in later rounds, I would be happy with that. but, Jake Long is regarded as the best OT in this class and whoever is picked later won't be as NFL ready as he is. plus, if you look at our team in it's current state, we have a decent front seven with depth as is. how much of an impact can Chris Long make playing behind JT and JP? the offensive line, on the other hand, is missing two starters and needs at least two other players for depth. Jake Long would play from day one and I believe that is what you want from the #1 overall pick.

If you want to continue to pick the least important part of my argument that glaring weaknesses and no negatives are two utterly different things then please do.

You are right in that Jake Long is the best OT in this class, I do not doubt that. The thing is alot of people question his ability to immediately step in to the LT spot and not need help a good bit of the time. That is why they believe his best fit is on the right side. Tell me the last time, outside of Jordan Gross who was still tried on the left side, a RT was taken in the top ten? Its a gross misuse of money. On top of that, what do Parcells and Ireland covet? The OLB position. Having JT and JP does not mean we werent going to draft an OLB high. They are slowing down quite a bit and JT could be traded very soon.

 

[3rdandinches]

If you want to continue to pick the least important part of my argument that glaring weaknesses and no negatives are two utterly different things then please do.

You are right in that Jake Long is the best OT in this class, I do not doubt that. The thing is alot of people question his ability to immediately step in to the LT spot and not need help a good bit of the time. That is why they believe his best fit is on the right side. Tell me the last time, outside of Jordan Gross who was still tried on the left side, a RT was taken in the top ten? Its a gross misuse of money. On top of that, what do Parcells and Ireland covet? The OLB position. Having JT and JP does not mean we werent going to draft an OLB high. They are slowing down quite a bit and JT could be traded very soon.

A gross misuse of money is what Detroit has done with selecting WR's every year, which I would compare to select a OLB when you have two probowlers playing OLB already. This the perfect scenario to select a big time potential OLB in the later rounds to learn from JT and JP and step in full time a couple years down the road.
J.Long is a great LT prospect that we'd be lucky to line him up with Satele, Smiley, Carey and allow us to pick later for a fill in guard if not one on our roster.

 

[PerfectTeam]

A gross misuse of money is what Detroit has done with selecting WR's every year, which I would compare to select a OLB when you have two probowlers playing OLB already. This the perfect scenario to select a big time potential OLB in the later rounds to learn from JT and JP and step in full time a couple years down the road.
J.Long is a great LT prospect that we'd be lucky to line him up with Satele, Smiley, Carey and allow us to pick later for a fill in guard if not one on our roster.

Dont really see how detroit plays into it. The same GM kept drafting receivers at his own discretion. They were matt millens players. Parcells and Ireland inherited an aging OLB in JT who has never been one full time and a declining loud mouth in JP. They have no allegiance to either player. If porters contract wasnt so high, he would be gone or like I have said, Parcells has a philosophy which he passed on too alot of the coaches on the staff, which is to move OLBs inside which JP would be a prime candidate for. Outside of JT and JP, tell me who we have to back them up? Charlie Anderson, Abe Wright and Quentin Moses? Junior Glymph? Doesnt exactly sound like quality depth to me. Since we are running a 3-4 and need good OLB's to make it work, the four i mentioned dont exactly strike fear into offenses. On top of that, Ireland and Parcells absolutely covet OLB's, especially ones of Chrs Long's caliber. Why it is the obvious choice to me.