Lane Johnson had the 'freakiest Combine' ever (Rotoworld)

[Pachyderm_Wave]

[/COLOR]
And people who say this conveniently ignore the fact that we had garbage QBs because we prioritized offensive line over QB.

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Nobody is denying the fact that the Dolphins did not have a worthy QB, but it is only because they believed in Chad Henne. They were wrong to believe that, but you cant fault them for trying to build a decent line to protect him. The problem was believing, for too long, that Henne was the answer at QB not the philosophy of building a solid offensive line. I will also concede that they were wrong about some of the players they drafted to play those positions on the offensive line but I believe Tony Sporano had the most influence on those selections. I trust Philbin's eye for offensive line talent and scheme more, but only time will tell.

Few things...

1. They completely misevaluated the entire 2008 draft because of their stubborness. Miami only sent QB coach David Lee and DCS Chris Grier to Matt Ryan's pro day. Ireland, Parcells, nor Sparano attended. They had their sights so locked in on Jake Long, that they never really even considered Matt Ryan.... which is why they misevaluated him. They had Jake Long signed days before the draft even started.

2. Miami's front office was steadfast that Chad Henne was as good as Matt Ryan. They didn't see the gap because once again, they approached the situation with blinders on from the beginning.

3. They didn't try to build a decent offense line to protect Chad Henne. They tried to build an offensive line they thought could hide the flaws everywhere else. They tried to build the team around the offensive line. They mistakenly assumed they could build an offensive line that literally went out and won games on its own. The quarterback position was simply an afterthought.


You're on the right track in your estimation that Joe Philbin is the guy with a clue here. However, a year ago this time when the forum was littered with "What will we do with Jake Long once his contract is up" threads... I specifically said that in order for Philbin to have a chance to succeed, he would have to be allowed to free himself from being hitched to the left tackle position.

Which he did. There's absolutely no reason for Miami to waste more premium resources repeating the same mistakes over and over again.

 

[RT2DT4TD]

We needed playmaker(s). The plural is vital. I'm really happy we got Wallace and Keller, but that should only be the beginning. Same on the defensive side (Gonzo).

You make good points but does that mean you think Pouncy was a bad pick just because he is a center? Look at the 49ers oline, you don't think that has anything to do with their success? Imo your draft philosophy is waaaay to simplistic and you probably would have taken Randell Cobb or Titus Young over Pouncy because they are "playmakers".

 

[uk_dolfan]

Few things...

1. They completely misevaluated the entire 2008 draft because of their stubborness. Miami only sent QB coach David Lee and DCS Chris Grier to Matt Ryan's pro day. Ireland, Parcells, nor Sparano attended. They had their sights so locked in on Jake Long, that they never really even considered Matt Ryan.... which is why they misevaluated him. They had Jake Long signed days before the draft even started.

2. Miami's front office was steadfast that Chad Henne was as good as Matt Ryan. They didn't see the gap because once again, they approached the situation with blinders on from the beginning.

3. They didn't try to build a decent offense line to protect Chad Henne. They tried to build an offensive line they thought could hide the flaws everywhere else. They tried to build the team around the offensive line. They mistakenly assumed they could build an offensive line that literally went out and won games on its own. The quarterback position was simply an afterthought.


You're on the right track in your estimation that Joe Philbin is the guy with a clue here. However, a year ago this time when the forum was littered with "What will we do with Jake Long once his contract is up" threads... I specifically said that in order for Philbin to have a chance to succeed, he would have to be allowed to free himself from being hitched to the left tackle position.

Which he did. There's absolutely no reason for Miami to waste more premium resources repeating the same mistakes over and over again.

I know you are an Atlanta fan but why are you so hung up on Matt Ryan over Long? Half this board cant get over passing on Ryan for Long. If the draft was redone today Ryan probably wouldn't even be the first QB off the board. Could Matt Ryan do what Joe Flacco did in the playoffs this year? At this point I seriously doubt it. Ryan is a great regular season QB but so far an average post season one, Flacco is an average regular season QB and a clutch player in the post season. Given the choice I know who I would take on the Dolphins right now.

 

[RT2DT4TD]

I know you are an Atlanta fan but why are you so hung up on Matt Ryan over Long? Half this board cant get over passing on Ryan for Long. If the draft was redone today Ryan probably wouldn't even be the first QB off the board. Could Matt Ryan do what Joe Flacco did in the playoffs this year? At this point I seriously doubt it. Ryan is a great regular season QB but so far an average post season one, Flacco is an average regular season QB and a clutch player in the post season. Given the choice I know who I would take on the Dolphins right now.

OMG thank you so much, Matt Ryan is soooooooooooooooooooooooooo overrated and lol to the people who r in his corner thinking he is one of the top QB's in the league, like you say and I agree he isn't even the best QB in his class lmfao.

 

[Pachyderm_Wave]

I know you are an Atlanta fan but why are you so hung up on Matt Ryan over Long? Half this board cant get over passing on Ryan for Long. If the draft was redone today Ryan probably wouldn't even be the first QB off the board. Could Matt Ryan do what Joe Flacco did in the playoffs this year? At this point I seriously doubt it. Ryan is a great regular season QB but so far an average post season one, Flacco is an average regular season QB and a clutch player in the post season. Given the choice I know who I would take on the Dolphins right now.

Flacco's defense has forced 35 turnovers in the playoffs alone since 2008, including a 4 INT lobfest by the Dolphins and Chad Pennington. Matt Ryan's defense has forced 5 turnovers in the playoffs since 2008. There's the difference in playoff success.

Furthermore, Atlanta has lost to the superbowl champion or superbowl runner-up every time.

I'm not hung up on it. I don't talk about it anymore than you do. I just bring up the other side of it... the correct side. It has nothing to do with being "over it". Suits me fine that Miami passed on him for a left tackle that's no longer on the roster, but that's not going to stop me from discussing it from time to time anymore than it stops you.

---------- Post added at 12:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:16 PM ----------

Jake Long is soooooooooooooooooooooooooo overrated and lol to the people who r in his corner thinking he is one of the top LT's in the league, like you say and I agree he isn't even the best LT in his class lmfao.

Edited for accuracy.

 

[rickd13]

The logic in this thread is a disaster. It always is when you have people trying to make a case for the Jake Long mistake.

Hell, we have two posts in this thread that directly contradict one another despite trying to argue the same point of view.

"Jake Long was the right pick"... except no he wasn't. If he was the right pick, he'd still be here. Furthermore, the team would've been winning had he been the right pick.

"The Dolphins lose because they had garbage QB's"... exactly. Miami had garbage QB's because they chose Jake Long instead of Matt Ryan.



This is a pretty good article that illustrates the point I've been trying to get across about the left tackle position. The league is beginning to understand how overrated the position has become due to innovation, and changes in how offenses attack defenses, and vice versa. It specifically mentions my point about the key to having a good offensive line being 5 guys that step together, and how competent personnel people value skill positions and pass rushers high in the draft. I've tried to get that point across by showing the draft history of winning teams in black and white, but you can't fix stupid, and you can't convince stubborn.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9...-path-proves-demise-left-tackle-espn-magazine

I'm the one who said they had garbage at QB and I agree with you that Ryan should have been the pick instead of Long no doubt, but the old regime, especially that old fossil Dan Henning, were convinced that Chad Henne was as good a prospect as any of the other QB's in the draft. They drafted Long with the first pick in the draft because they believed offensive linemen had less bust potential than QB's and were worried about the large guaranteed money, pre-rookie salary cap, and they felt they could get Henne later in the draft so they took the safer route. The problem was they totally screwed up their evaluations of the QB's and were horribly wrong about Henne. If they were right about Henne nobody would have criticized them for taking the best offensive tackle in the draft first and than drafting a QB.
I find it ironic that you advocated drafting Luke Kuechley over Ryan Tannehill in last year's draft but you want to criticize the Dolphins for not prioritizing QB. Is a middle linebacker a higher priority than a QB now? The Dolphins understood that they needed a franchise QB so they took a chance on Tannehill in the first round. Your criticism is legitimate if you argue that the organization can't evaluate QB's, but not that they value offensive lineman, or any other position, more than QB. No one is that foolish.

 

[Spesh]

People who say this conveniently ignore the fact that the Dolphins had garbage at QB. They somehow want to correlate picking offensive lineman high with losing when the only correlation with losing is not having a great QB. The best teams in the league have great QB's and than they draft offensive lineman, especially tackles, high in the draft in order to protect them.

We've had garbage quarterback play because we've been spending all our draft picks on offensive lineman. So yeah, thats related.

And the best teams in the league only succeed when they draft a quarterback and then invest in skill positions.

 

[Gonzo]

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And people who say this conveniently ignore the fact that we had garbage QBs because we prioritized offensive line over QB.

---------- Post added at 08:27 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:26 AM ----------


Nobody is denying the fact that the Dolphins did not have a worthy QB, but it is only because they believed in Chad Henne. They were wrong to believe that, but you cant fault them for trying to build a decent line to protect him. The problem was believing, for too long, that Henne was the answer at QB not the philosophy of building a solid offensive line. I will also concede that they were wrong about some of the players they drafted to play those positions on the offensive line but I believe Tony Sporano had the most influence on those selections. I trust Philbin's eye for offensive line talent and scheme more, but only time will tell.

Slimm nailed the response to this on the head. I will add that them "believing in" Henne doesn't make the situation right, just like Cameron "believing in" whatever garbage QB we had that season (holy ****, I'm blocking it out already...was it Lemon? ), Wanny "believing in" Fiedler, etc. The problem was prioritizing line over the most important position (BY FAR) in football.

 

[Pachyderm_Wave]

I'm the one who said they had garbage at QB and I agree with you that Ryan should have been the pick instead of Long no doubt, but the old regime, especially that old fossil Dan Henning, were convinced that Chad Henne was as good a prospect as any of the other QB's in the draft. They drafted Long with the first pick in the draft because they believed offensive linemen had less bust potential than QB's and were worried about the large guaranteed money, pre-rookie salary cap, and they felt they could get Henne later in the draft so they took the safer route. The problem was they totally screwed up their evaluations of the QB's and were horribly wrong about Henne. If they were right about Henne nobody would have criticized them for taking the best offensive tackle in the draft first and than drafting a QB.
I find it ironic that you advocated drafting Luke Kuechley over Ryan Tannehill in last year's draft but you want to criticize the Dolphins for not prioritizing QB. Is a middle linebacker a higher priority than a QB now? The Dolphins understood that they need a franchise QB so they took a chance on Tannehill in the first round. Your criticism is legitimate if you argue that the organization can't evaluate QB's, but not that they value offensive lineman, or any other position, more than QB. No one is that foolish.

Luke Kuechly was the better player, simple as that. If I said it once I said it a thousand times, that if Miami selected Tannehill at #8 they were passing up better players. Which is exactly what happened.

However, that wouldn't have been the case in 2008 with Miami picking #1 overall. Not only was Jake Long not a better player than Matt Ryan, I simply cannot fathom how they didn't factor impact into their selection. Hell, it was clear as day the entire college football season of '07. Matt Ryan had a talentless BC team undefeated and ranked #2 in the BCS at one point. Jake Long couldn't even stop Michigan from losing at home to Appalachian St. How the hell did they figure Jake Long was going to keep Miami from going 7-9 every year.... they had no quarterback.

 

[Gonzo]

Chicken or the egg?? How many playoff wins have Stafford and Bradford gotten with their Star QB? Balance and team, with coaching and management to have the knowledge and vision to put it all together...

Star QB? I know we've gone a while without seeing what a star QB looks like outside of the 2 times we play Brady a year, but...

And Stafford had Backus, so...

---------- Post added at 10:44 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:43 AM ----------

Luke Kuechly was the better player, simple as that. If I said it once I said it a thousand times, that if Miami selected Tannehill at #8 they were passing up better players. Which is exactly what happened.

However, that wouldn't have been the case in 2008 with Miami picking #1 overall. Not only was Jake Long not a better player than Matt Ryan, I simply cannot fathom how they didn't factor impact into their selection. Hell, it was clear as day the entire college football season of '07. Matt Ryan had a talentless BC team undefeated and ranked #2 in the BCS at one point. Jake Long couldn't even stop Michigan from losing at home to Appalachian St. How the hell did they figure Jake Long was going to keep Miami from going 7-9 every year.... they had no quarterback.

QB is really the only time I'm okay with passing up better players for "need." It's the only "need" that matters.

 

[Gonzo]

He certainly had flaws but before injury wore him down he was still as good as a LT got in this league.

Long was the right pick, looking back now we should have made sure our roster had Jake Long and Joe Flacco not Matt Ryan and someone else.

It doesn't take hindsight like you're employing regarding Flacco to see that Long was the bad pick. Ryan was the correct pick over Flacco, easily. You always take the guy from the big school that played against real competition over the guy who had to transfer to a small school in order to start. Give Ryan that defense Flacco had and Atlanta wouldn't just be really good, they'd be on their way to multiple Super Bowls.

Honestly, it's okay to drop the bitterness about the Jake Wrong debacle now. You guys were Wrong. He's no longer here, so you can move on.

 

[Spesh]

We needed playmaker(s). The plural is vital. I'm really happy we got Wallace and Keller, but that should only be the beginning. Same on the defensive side (Gonzo).

You make good points but does that mean you think Pouncy was a bad pick just because he is a center? Look at the 49ers oline, you don't think that has anything to do with their success? Imo your draft philosophy is waaaay to simplistic and you probably would have taken Randell Cobb or Titus Young over Pouncy because they are "playmakers".

Go look at the 49'ers wins/loss record after they drafted offensive lineman and compare it to after they drafted Aldon Smith and got better quarterback play. Please post the results, so we can kill that myth together.

And playmakers such as Cobb over Pouncey? Done. Sold.

 

[RT2DT4TD]

Wow, Pouncy was a great pick IMO and I don't see how anyone could disagree with that but hey, we all have our opinions. And I don't like Ryan and think Flacco is better not because of their playoff successes, but because I think Flacco is more physically gifted and Ryan doesn't have the elite intangibles that say an Andrew Luck has. Sorry I just don't believe in Matt Ryan (look at the offensive talent vs. the Ravens) and I DO BELIEVE JAKE LONG WAS THE CORRECT PICK (see 2008).

 

[silver McNibblets]

Hmmm.

Trade away valuable picks to draft an offensive lineman, or use those valuable picks to draft say a Tyler Eifert and Ryan Swope. It'd be like asking Patriots fans would they have traded Gronk and Welker for Joe Thomas last season.

 

[rickd13]

Luke Kuechly was the better player, simple as that. If I said it once I said it a thousand times, that if Miami selected Tannehill at #8 they were passing up better players. Which is exactly what happened.

However, that wouldn't have been the case in 2008 with Miami picking #1 overall. Not only was Jake Long not a better player than Matt Ryan, I simply cannot fathom how they didn't factor impact into their selection. Hell, it was clear as day the entire college football season of '07. Matt Ryan had a talentless BC team undefeated and ranked #2 in the BCS at one point. Jake Long couldn't even stop Michigan from losing at home to Appalachian St. How the hell did they figure Jake Long was going to keep Miami from going 7-9 every year.... they had no quarterback.

I agree with you about Matt Ryan. I loved him when he was coming out and I do not agree with the fools on here that say he is over rated because of his playoff record. I think the organization screwed up their evaluations of the players themselves and not the value of the positions. I also really think that most of the people criticizing the Dolphins for taking Long over Ryan underestimate how much they feared the bust rate on QB's and how much guaranteed money they would have to pay the first pick in the draft pre-rookie cap, but all of that is water under the bridge. If Ryan Tannehill develops into the player the Dolphins, and I, believe he can be than I don't care how many "better" players they passed up to select Tannehill. The draft is a projection and the Dolphins are projecting that Tannehill is the type of QB that they can ultimately win a championship with. If they believe that, and I'm hopeful of this as well, there is nothing wrong with trying to put a great offensive line around him.