Michael Vick....the most overrated QB of all time

[SpaceMountain16]

Under appreciated? Fiedler was the reason we didn't invest in a young QB (like Brees who we could of had) to groom into a consistent quality starter. We're still suffering from that. Sure, there were games when Fiedler was on the mark. But he was not reliable. He was the Gary Busey of QB's and only a Jets fan would yearn for the days of the Fiedler Era. The Monday Night Meltdown would not have been possible withoput Fiedler and his partner.

And Fiedler also won playoff games, but nice way to skirt that.

My point is that judging a player by his team's W-L is faulty. It just shows how a team does against it's opponents. A QB could have pluperfect one game and his team loses or he could perform like crap yet his team pulls off a win. That said, I'd more rather have Vick (back in his prime) over Fiedler but maybe you can see my point now.

1. Good/Interesting comparison
2. And the over rated Dolphin defense of the 2000's
3. "A" playoff game

That said, comparing Jay Fielder to Michael Vick is pretty silly. Michael Vick carried his teams to victory, many times won games on his own. Jay Fiedler was decent at times, but was bailed out by the players around him. His crucial mistakes cost the Dolphins many games, as Vick's did in Atlanta, only Fiedler wasn't responsible solely for as many wins as Vick was.

 

[ih8brady]

1. Good/Interesting comparison
2. And the over rated Dolphin defense of the 2000's
3. "A" playoff game

That said, comparing Jay Fielder to Michael Vick is pretty silly. Michael Vick carried his teams to victory, many times won games on his own. Jay Fiedler was decent at times, but was bailed out by the players around him. His crucial mistakes cost the Dolphins many games, as Vick's did in Atlanta, only Fiedler wasn't responsible solely for as many wins as Vick was.

Like I said, I'd take Vick over Fiedler if I was a GM. The point is that judging a QB for W-L is foolish. Fiedler was second to only Favre for most of the Fiedler Era, but to stray from the win-corollary, it would be unwise to suggest only Favre was better in that time frame. I think a QB's production and play are what defines a QB's quality. This idea that a QB automatically deserves sole praise or scapegoating for a win or loss is missing the point. It is as though to blame an artist because the art gallery closed in which his paintings were displayed. Failure in a group does not equate to mediocrity or lousiness by all members of said group, imo.

Comparing two quarterbacks isn't foolish. You could reasonably compare Ryan Leaf and Dan Marino. Now if you concluded that they were similar in quality or production, that would be silly and blatantly so. My initial introduction of Fiedler was to reference someone with a strong starter's record but weak caliber.

Also, if you believe that W-L scale, why not call Marino, Vick, Leaf, Fouts and Fiedler all poor QB's because they never won a championship? Seems ridiculous? I agree.

(*If there's some kind of website or stat book that monitors a sole win by a QB where his entire team save the passing game is ineffective, I'd love to see it. Then, you could at least honestly say a QB was the sole reason for a win. It would be very interesting as well, and also to contrast the fogginess of memory)

ps. Well, if you include the blowout in JAC, then it is plural.



EDIT:

*Here's an interesting article actually trying to address the factor of a defense that allows little to many points in a give game.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?p=1808


Keep in mind that the Colts were a bottom of a barrel team before Manning was drafted and became a powerhouse and eventually champions. Granted, Manning had a great WR in Harrison, OL and a young Edge (at least partially), but the defense was also mediocre most seasons. A lukewarm or good QB can't perform the way he did, only a great QB. Also, Joe Montana had perhaps the best football player ever as his WR (Rice) and some great positional players but who would say Montana is overrated not a HoF, etc.? Besides Brady, who is even arguably at the level of Manning in his generation? I remember hating the guy and rooting against him as a former divisional foe and the fact that he is in annoying commercials and looks like Forrest Gump, but is he really overrated? Like any non-Pats fan, as you may guess, I dispise Tom Brady but he's obviously a tremendous QB.

 

[SpaceMountain16]

Like I said, I'd take Vick over Fiedler if I was a GM. The point is that judging a QB for W-L is foolish. Fiedler was second to only Favre for most of the Fiedler Era, but to stray from the win-corollary, it would be unwise to suggest only Favre was better in that time frame. I think a QB's production and play are what defines a QB's quality. This idea that a QB automatically deserves sole praise or scapegoating for a win or loss is missing the point. It is as though to blame an artist because the art gallery closed in which his paintings were displayed. Failure in a group does not equate to mediocrity or lousiness by all members of said group, imo.

Comparing two quarterbacks isn't foolish. You could reasonably compare Ryan Leaf and Dan Marino. Now if you concluded that they were similar in quality or production, that would be silly and blatantly so. My initial introduction of Fiedler was to reference someone with a strong starter's record but weak caliber.

Also, if you believe that W-L scale, why not call Marino, Vick, Leaf, Fouts and Fiedler all poor QB's because they never won a championship? Seems ridiculous? I agree.

(If there's some kind of website or stat book that monitors a sole win by a QB where his entire team save the passing game is ineffective, I'd love to see it. Then, you could at least honestly say a QB was the sole reason for a win. It would be very interesting as well, and also to contrast the fogginess of memory)

ps. Well, if you include the blowout in JAC, then it is plural.

Well thats where the equilibrium comes in, the stats mixed with the W/L. The production/results mixed. Which is where the differences between game managers like Fiedler and play makers who carry their team like Vick really take center stage. The same with Favre and Marino, these guys consistently won games for their teams, elevating the play of their team mates. Peyton Manning very rarely does that, and it's hard to say he elevates the play of his team mates either. As stastically proficient as Manning is, i would take dozens of other QB's over him in a big game situation INCLUDING Marino who never "won the big one".

 

[nyjunc]

:lol2: I think your the only person who thinks Peyton Manning is overrated...Im going to take that as a joke


All I know is ....

Peyton Manning = Superbowl MVP, hes on pace to break every QB record

Michael Vick = has won a few regular season games...big deal so has Jay Fiedler, Jake Delhomme and Kyle Orton

I am sure plenty of people who understand the game realize how overrated Manning is. Did you watch the Super Bowl? Did you really think he deserevd the MVP? That was a gift to Peyton.

People act like michael Vick is Cleo lemon, Trent Green Miami, Daunte Miami, AJ Feeley. Vick was a very good QB, the game is about much more than fantasy #s.

Under appreciated? Fiedler was the reason we didn't invest in a young QB (like Brees who we could of had) to groom into a consistent quality starter. We're still suffering from that. Sure, there were games when Fiedler was on the mark. But he was not reliable. He was the Gary Busey of QB's and only a Jets fan would yearn for the days of the Fiedler Era. The Monday Night Meltdown would not have been possible withoput Fiedler and his partner.

And Fiedler also won playoff games, but nice way to skirt that.

My point is that judging a player by his team's W-L is faulty. It just shows how a team does against it's opponents. A QB could have pluperfect one game and his team loses or he could perform like crap yet his team pulls off a win. That said, I'd more rather have Vick (back in his prime) over Fiedler but maybe you can see my point now.

Do you really think the dolphins didn't draft a QB b/c of Jay?

The Monday Night Miracle happened b/c a)your D choked like usual and b)your OC stopped being aggressive and took the ball out of Fiedlers hand.

Like I said, I'd take Vick over Fiedler if I was a GM. The point is that judging a QB for W-L is foolish. Fiedler was second to only Favre for most of the Fiedler Era, but to stray from the win-corollary, it would be unwise to suggest only Favre was better in that time frame. I think a QB's production and play are what defines a QB's quality. This idea that a QB automatically deserves sole praise or scapegoating for a win or loss is missing the point. It is as though to blame an artist because the art gallery closed in which his paintings were displayed. Failure in a group does not equate to mediocrity or lousiness by all members of said group, imo.

Comparing two quarterbacks isn't foolish. You could reasonably compare Ryan Leaf and Dan Marino. Now if you concluded that they were similar in quality or production, that would be silly and blatantly so. My initial introduction of Fiedler was to reference someone with a strong starter's record but weak caliber.

Also, if you believe that W-L scale, why not call Marino, Vick, Leaf, Fouts and Fiedler all poor QB's because they never won a championship? Seems ridiculous? I agree.

(*If there's some kind of website or stat book that monitors a sole win by a QB where his entire team save the passing game is ineffective, I'd love to see it. Then, you could at least honestly say a QB was the sole reason for a win. It would be very interesting as well, and also to contrast the fogginess of memory)

ps. Well, if you include the blowout in JAC, then it is plural.



EDIT:

*Here's an interesting article actually trying to address the factor of a defense that allows little to many points in a give game.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?p=1808


Keep in mind that the Colts were a bottom of a barrel team before Manning was drafted and became a powerhouse and eventually champions. Granted, Manning had a great WR in Harrison, OL and a young Edge (at least partially), but the defense was also mediocre most seasons. A lukewarm or good QB can't perform the way he did, only a great QB. Also, Joe Montana had perhaps the best football player ever as his WR (Rice) and some great positional players but who would say Montana is overrated not a HoF, etc.? Besides Brady, who is even arguably at the level of Manning in his generation? I remember hating the guy and rooting against him as a former divisional foe and the fact that he is in annoying commercials and looks like Forrest Gump, but is he really overrated? Like any non-Pats fan, as you may guess, I dispise Tom Brady but he's obviously a tremendous QB.

Marino never had enough help. He made made the marks brothers but those guys weren't great WRs, he rarely had good Ds and never had a ground game. That is very different than what Manning has played with.

The Colts were bottom of the barrel? They were a year removed from being a playoff team and 2 years removed from being a team that reached the AFC Title Game. This was not the Arizona Cardinals he was walking into.

Keep in mind that Manning is 7-8 in postseason, he's lost 3 home playoff games and he has led those immensely talented O's to less than 14 PPG in playoff losses. Do you expect the Indy D to hold opponents to 13 or less every game? The Indy D's have been good enough to win multiple Championships or at least get to multiple SBs- what has held Indy back has been the play of their best player in January.

 

[ih8brady]

I am sure plenty of people who understand the game realize how overrated Manning is. Did you watch the Super Bowl? Did you really think he deserevd the MVP? That was a gift to Peyton.

People act like michael Vick is Cleo lemon, Trent Green Miami, Daunte Miami, AJ Feeley. Vick was a very good QB, the game is about much more than fantasy #s.



Do you really think the dolphins didn't draft a QB b/c of Jay?

The Monday Night Miracle happened b/c a)your D choked like usual and b)your OC stopped being aggressive and took the ball out of Fiedlers hand.



Marino never had enough help. He made made the marks brothers but those guys weren't great WRs, he rarely had good Ds and never had a ground game. That is very different than what Manning has played with.

The Colts were bottom of the barrel? They were a year removed from being a playoff team and 2 years removed from being a team that reached the AFC Title Game. This was not the Arizona Cardinals he was walking into.

Keep in mind that Manning is 7-8 in postseason, he's lost 3 home playoff games and he has led those immensely talented O's to less than 14 PPG in playoff losses. Do you expect the Indy D to hold opponents to 13 or less every game? The Indy D's have been good enough to win multiple Championships or at least get to multiple SBs- what has held Indy back has been the play of their best player in January.

Yes I do. I understand why you enjoy Fiedler so much. He essentially ensured the neutralization of Miami from making any kind of serious run in the playoffs despite reasonable talent. We would have needed a perfect defense ala Baltimore to have even made the SB with someone like Fiedler as a head. I used to love Rob Johnson being on the Bills because he disabled them so much from his erratic play. I get that Fiedler was the Rob Johnson to the other AFCE teams.

If the Colts (who were previously 3-13) were not in poor shape at that point, then neither were the Falcons who were in the Super Bowl two seasons previously.


You're right that the Manning and the Colts have underachieved greatly within their last ten or so PO appearances, but can you really claim him to be overrated? Who even comes close in his generation? There's Brady, then Manning/Who? McNabb maybe?

 

[JT-forpresident]

The most exciting football player you have ever seen you must have never seen Barry Sanders play.

indeed i haven't. i've seen highlights obviously...

 

[Charlie Brown]

I am sure plenty of people who understand the game realize how overrated Manning is. Did you watch the Super Bowl? Did you really think he deserevd the MVP? That was a gift to Peyton.

People act like michael Vick is Cleo lemon, Trent Green Miami, Daunte Miami, AJ Feeley. Vick was a very good QB, the game is about much more than fantasy #s.



Do you really think the dolphins didn't draft a QB b/c of Jay?

The Monday Night Miracle happened b/c a)your D choked like usual and b)your OC stopped being aggressive and took the ball out of Fiedlers hand.



Marino never had enough help. He made made the marks brothers but those guys weren't great WRs, he rarely had good Ds and never had a ground game. That is very different than what Manning has played with.

The Colts were bottom of the barrel? They were a year removed from being a playoff team and 2 years removed from being a team that reached the AFC Title Game. This was not the Arizona Cardinals he was walking into.

Keep in mind that Manning is 7-8 in postseason, he's lost 3 home playoff games and he has led those immensely talented O's to less than 14 PPG in playoff losses. Do you expect the Indy D to hold opponents to 13 or less every game? The Indy D's have been good enough to win multiple Championships or at least get to multiple SBs- what has held Indy back has been the play of their best player in January.

Okay I agree......but Vick didnt win a superbowl, he didnt really do anything....What did he do to deserve all the money the Falcons wasted on him?

 

[#1dolphinsfan]

The most overrated QB in NFL history are you kidding me

 

[JPPT1974]

Well let's see if he makes a comeback!

 

[nyjunc]

Yes I do. I understand why you enjoy Fiedler so much. He essentially ensured the neutralization of Miami from making any kind of serious run in the playoffs despite reasonable talent. We would have needed a perfect defense ala Baltimore to have even made the SB with someone like Fiedler as a head. I used to love Rob Johnson being on the Bills because he disabled them so much from his erratic play. I get that Fiedler was the Rob Johnson to the other AFCE teams.

If the Colts (who were previously 3-13) were not in poor shape at that point, then neither were the Falcons who were in the Super Bowl two seasons previously.


You're right that the Manning and the Colts have underachieved greatly within their last ten or so PO appearances, but can you really claim him to be overrated? Who even comes close in his generation? There's Brady, then Manning/Who? McNabb maybe?

You do realize the year prior to Fiedler w/ marino your teams went out 38-3 and 62-7 in '98 and '99, right? you also hadn't won a div title since 1994. Miami was expected to be horrible in 2000 but instead you won the division.

If your D was even close to great they could have at least made a title game or 2 or at least not been humiliated every postseason loss.

The Colts were not in great shape but they had talent. He walked into an offense w/ Marvin harrison entering his prime and Marshall Faulk in his prime plus good pass catching TEs in Marcus Pollard and ken Dilger. Not many QBs have weapons better than those.

Manning is one of the best QBs in the game but people act like he's better than Brady and a top 5 type all-time and that's simply not the case. That's where I label him overrated.

Okay I agree......but Vick didnt win a superbowl, he didnt really do anything....What did he do to deserve all the money the Falcons wasted on him?

He brought Atlanta back to respectability. They were declining rapidly post 1998. Chris Chandler was always hurt, they had lost Jamal Anderson, their core was getting old and he brought them back. had them in postseason 2 of 3 years inclduing winning in lambeau(first visitor ever to do that in postseason) and reaching an NFC Title Game.

 

[SpaceMountain16]

Okay I agree......but Vick didnt win a superbowl, he didnt really do anything....What did he do to deserve all the money the Falcons wasted on him?

Well he put people in seats and made the Falcons into a marquee franchise. Which is basically the reason he got the money.

 

[Astrosback]

what i find more ridiculous and pathetic in the whole mike vick saga, is that if his name was peyton manning, he probably wouldn't have done any jail, then again if he did, everyone would be welcoming him with open arms.

and people say racism is a thing of the past ... sheesh ...

wether you like his style or not, mike vick should be given a chance, and believe me a LOT of nfl teams would want him on their teams but because he's not supported by the media and the majority of americans, they will shut the door to vick, to save face and not create a whole circus around the team

*** on a sidenote, i'm caucasian so don't give me that "it's because you're black" thing ...

You're way off. If anything, a white guy would've been fried worse and wouldn't have had the support that a black guy will get from the black community seemingly no matter what (see OJ Simpson case).

And fock Mike Vick and any "chance". How many of those dead dogs get a 2nd chance at life - let alone fame and fortune.

Let that piece of crap get a regular job like every other ex-con.

 

[JT-forpresident]

You're way off. If anything, a white guy would've been fried worse and wouldn't have had the support that a black guy will get from the black community seemingly no matter what (see OJ Simpson case).

And fock Mike Vick and any "chance". How many of those dead dogs get a 2nd chance at life - let alone fame and fortune.

Let that piece of crap get a regular job like every other ex-con.

coming back to nfl might be asking too much for america, but i think he should play in the UFL or arena league...if he can't look out because canada ain't that far... and boy would i be glad to see him up here

 

[Astrosback]

Well he put people in seats and made the Falcons into a marquee franchise. Which is basically the reason he got the money.

Right...and then he became the biggest disgrace of the NFL since OJ Simpson.

I'm sure Arthur Blank rues the day he met Mike "Dog Torturer" Vick.

 

[Astrosback]

coming back to nfl might be asking too much for america, but i think he should play in the UFL or arena league...if he can't look out because canada ain't that far... and boy would i be glad to see him up here

You can have him. Maybe he would enjoy clubbing baby seals in his spare time up there.