Overrated & Underrated Players?

[hoops]

haloti ngata or randy starks ck??? your preference...off of what you've seen of both...i realize ngata plays end primarily but that guy could be a monster nose imo

which one???

 

[ckparrothead]

haloti ngata or randy starks ck??? your preference...off of what you've seen of both...i realize ngata plays end primarily but that guy could be a monster nose imo

which one???

If Haloti Ngata switched to Nose Tackle he would jump to #1 overall on the list I gave, even above Vince Wilfork. So, that's not all that significant a question to me.

However, the fact that you assume that Ngata would be a devastating Nose is interesting, since he has as little experience at the position as Randy Starks. Seems an admission that we're perfectly capable of evaluating a guy even if he plays one DL position, and projecting how he'd play at another.

 

[hoops]

ha ha...i was wondering just how far this starks thing would go...

ngata is the chiznit

but ngata to me also possesses ideal nose size...not that starks is small but you think starks will command double teams on the inside like a ngata would etc???

i think starks can at times be single blocked and ridden out...i don't think that about ngata when he's fully healthy...forget about it

 

[Mr. Magoo]

I broke down a few Dolphins games last year and Starks I thought was the best player on the team, even better than Jake Long (who I thought 2nd, with the two of them ahead of the rest by a fairly wide margin). I just hope he doesn't wear down so much his 3rd down snaps go down significantly. We need that guy on the field for as many plays as possible. If he goes down from his 730 snaps last year to the 448 snaps Wilfork played, I don't care how good he is, that's a net loss. Now Wilfork doesn't play very often on passing games but it's a fact of life that the nose is rough and tumble territory and guys tend to wear down in there versus playing at end. Then again Jay Ratliff played 769 snaps last year so I think the unknown -- and by extension hope -- is that Starks proves to be as durable as Ratliff has been. Now Ratliff's game is more about quick penetration than Starks, who just has freakish strength. So that may contribute to Ratliff's ability to withstand that much punishment. But now we're down into unknowns of unknowns. I just know I'll be crossing my fingers on that point.

 

[hoops]

i think the wear and tear on starks is a definite concern...i think a rotation is the best thing for his long term success

shift him out to end some and give solai some snaps etc...

 

[phintim]

i think the wear and tear on starks is a definite concern...i think a rotation is the best thing for his long term success

shift him out to end some and give solai some snaps etc...

Yea to get the most out of some of these guys we need to rotate. P. Solai can be fairly good when keeping him fresh. So far much of his issues have been more of the durablity thing when he is needed to go the entire game. Same thing with Ronnie Brown you have to watch those 2 guys snaps carefully to get the most out of them week end and week out.

 

[Mr. Magoo]

i think the wear and tear on starks is a definite concern...i think a rotation is the best thing for his long term success

shift him out to end some and give solai some snaps etc...

But the problem is that both top substitutes at end right now (Merling and Odrick) are better pass rushers than they are against the run. Merling will probably always be that way, and Odrick's best qualities right now are his quickness off the ball and just pure relentlessness effort, which while good to have in the run in my opinion helps you more as a pass rusher (especially since fewer and fewer teams are using the toss sweep as a big part of their offense). Odrick is going to struggle some against the run at first, in my view. He's not used to holding up players in a 2 gap scheme and his overall strength as an anchor needs some work.

So the basic idea is if you're going to have Starks sub out an end on third down, where let's say you have a four man line, who does he sub out? In this he's going to be primarily subbing out either Merling or Odrick (let's leave out Langford for right now), leaving the other as primarily a two down player. That's not using your resources to their best effect, in my opinion. What would be potentially interesting is to shift Merling out as a 4-3 end in this alignment, giving you a four man line looking like Wake-Odrick-Starks-Merling, with a dime or nickle package behind it. Not sure if Merling has the quickness at his current weight to be a threat out there, but it's worth thinking about.

Now I'm not saying we're going to see Starks play every down and take the 966 snaps Yeremiah Bell played last year. Rotations are always a big part of defensive line play. But my concern is that any setup that leads to Starks taking less snaps is a bad proposition for us considering how dominant he is. I also think we could see a "surprise" cut of someone like Tony McDaniel, who offers virtually nothing in the run game, in favor of a more powerful guy like a Lionel Dotson or even an Ikaika Alama-Francis (if that's how it's spelled), to help out more on first and second down.

 

[hoops]

^^^ agree with you all the way...i would think merling would be the odd man out unless its a four man rotation...i honestly think that because of what you've mentioned here and the pass rush depth we seem to have up front merling may be trade bait in camp...

and to be honest if mcdaniels was cut i wouldn't be surprised...we have stockpiled 3-4 ends who can play inside on pass downs...we may favor a run defender type with a last guy on the 53 spot...i do think mcdaniels would get gobbled up pretty quickly if he was let go though...

i think we need to trade from a position of strength like this to help fortify a weakness...so to me i'd have merling in draft pick or straight up player trade discussions assuming we stay healthy thru camp and the preseason up front...and assuming odrick shows he's ready to handle duties on pass downs...

as for odrick with you all the way that he's not ready to play an anchor role...didn't look that way on college tape to me at all...plays too high too much at this stage

 

[Mr. Magoo]

I doubt you would find anyone willing to give up much for Merling. Not just because he's underwhelmed as a player but because of this domestic violence thing hanging over his head. I doubt if his value has ever been lower than it is right now, frankly.

Yeah, the D-line is going to be an interesting numbers game. Let's say right now we have Starks, Langford, Odrick, Soliai, Ferguson (out for eight weeks, but still has be kept on the roster) all as locks. Assuming we keep seven guys like we did last year, that means you've got Merling, McDaniel, Dotson, Baker and Francis fighting for two spots. If we assume Merling takes one of those spots, which seems likely, who do you keep as the last one? Now maybe it's me because as I've said many times I'm very down on McDaniel as a player after breaking down his play last year, but I think you definitely look at a guy who can help you out against the run. I mean, think about what would happen if Langford were to go down. You'd be pretty much up **** creek without a paddle as a run defense... pretty much forced to move Starks back out to end and playing Soliai full time as a nose again.

 

[Dr. Phin]

Overrated - Crowder and Merling
Unerrated- Camarillo, Langford and Bell

 

[hoops]

yeah but who among those guys vying for that last spot is a run defender...dotson is billed as a pass rusher who flashes in practice francis is a virtual unknown we agree that mcdaniel isn't special by any means...i think i'd lean with baker who flashed in his game duty although i think that was against a horrid bills interior line but i have heard he's been asked to bulk up and compete at nose...maybe bakers the guy

if that's what we're looking for...

 

[hoops]

is there any way we can store fergie on the roster for those 8 weeks and him not count against the 53??? like pup or something??? probably wishful thinking on my part

 

[Mr. Magoo]

Yeah, I didn't pick one because I frankly don't know. I don't have a chance to go to practice and my memory of last year's preseason games isn't good enough. I guess I'm just hoping there's a guy amongst them who defends the run better than McDaniel. But yeah, I've heard the same stuff you have about Dotson flashing as a pass rusher but I thought Baker was being brought along more as an NT. Maybe I'm wrong about that, but I think when he did get into the game last year it was as an NT.

 

[Mr. Magoo]

is there any way we can store fergie on the roster for those 8 weeks and him not count against the 53??? like pup or something??? probably wishful thinking on my part

Not with a suspension. Pretty sure you have to be eligible. Otherwise every team with a guy facing suspension would just PUP him for a few weeks and keep the roster spot.

 

[hoops]

maybe we see a kelly gregg like player in ryan baker...that would be nice