Jimmy James
You sit on a throne of lies!
That is the nicest thing a Bills fan could ever say to me. :)
Poll: Fielder Out?
- Thread starter Charlie Rivers
- Start date
That is the nicest thing a Bills fan could ever say to me. :)
LarryFinFan
Left So Fla, never the Fins...
Wow...can't believe this thread is still going on...JF is marginal at best, can't take us to where we all want to be...he has had his opportunity...time for a changing of the guard...Let's put this thing to bed...think of it this way, the worst that could happen is that we go 10-6 again and don't make the p/o's. I say that because I feel that RW and the D will keep us in most games, so if that is the case, we can try our luck in FA or the draft next year. This is the card that has been dealt to us...I personally feel AJ will do very well, but that is just IMO...So let's move on and see what happens in September...
I dont think Jay is starter material and evidently all of the teams that didnt trade for him agree. Why have a guy with experience if his experience does not include making the right reads, not having anticipatory skills, not being accurate. Sure he knows how to call the plays in the huddle, but he has nothing to pass on to a young QB....unless it is what not to do. In Jays defense, it's not his fault that he doesnt have talent, and that Dave is paying him millions....got to admit, that if Dave called me up and offered me millions, I'd take the job...
Well he put up worse numbers than Huard, Got beat by Huard in preseason by performance in 2000 and yet you still say Jay was the man...That really explains it all now doesn't it?
You don't care how bad Jay does compared to someone else Jay is always the better man in your eyes...he wasn't experienced as Huard was that year...So where was your precious EXPERIENCE COUNTS argument then?
Why wasn't Huard still the starter until Jay beat him for the job?
Funny I don't hear any of that from you in Huards case...
Rather hipocritical of you wouldn't you say?
Funny how you didn't feel that way with Huard...see your duplicity and bias here?
Ray did just as well against the Jets that year as Jay did in fact better! He just didn't have Ricky running for 150 yards the way Jay did because Dixon was hurt at the time!
but in any case this part of the discussion is done...
He played the same as a QB as Jay did....
Misleading way to look at a QB? by what he himself did instead of what everyone else did?
How about an 1800 yard rusher in 2003? Where does that lead you on it depends on what the rest of the team does? Lowest drop % by WRs and a top 5 Defense...you want I'll list his poor throws for that year if you like....
Tells the story nicely as it always has!
So 11-5 is the BEST this team can do?
Why is that?
Is it the top 5 Defense holding to that?
The 1800+ yard rusher?
The WRs who was in the top 5 of Drop% in the NFL?
Why is 11-5 the best we can do if not the QB?
What if we had a top 15 passing game?
Wouldn't we be 13-3 at least?
you mean your NON answer doesn't change because you don't have one...
you want Norv to change a Top 5 capable offensive system to make Jay look good...Well WHAT could he have done? What is Jay GOOD at besides hitting CBs on the numbers?
You haven't answered because there is no answer...ther is NOTHING Jay is good at ut getting hurt and throwing picks!
you want to change a KNOWN successfull System to tailor it to a QB with ZERO SKILLS...the only way to make Jay look good by changing the system is to run on every down...And then what do we rank in passing and offense? #2?
Not when your compiling stats on a qualifier that says PLAYOFFs in it...Not a big problem I don't really care but once you include them the picture drastically changes doesn't it?
9-12 15 TDs 30 INT a 1:2 TD to INT ratio...
Much worse than any of the three we were talking about...
But you posted the stats in a reasonable manner so subject closed
None of this addresses what Norv could have done to make Jay better...he got better performance out of EVERYONE but Jay...1800+ yarder...Chambers had his best season...TE was better than usual...So who was worse under Norv aside from Jay?
And again what could Norv do to make Jay pass better? And even if he had gotten them up to 22nd in passing why was it not #2? Who was at fault for Norvs system not doing as well as it is designed to be? You keep blaming Norv for us not being 22nd in passing but not Jay for not being #2 in total offense which is what Norvs system IS CAPABLE of doing!
You blame Norv for not having a system a crappy QB can look good in is all your really saying here....
No all you have done is said Chan got us 22nd ranked and why didn't norv...you haven't ONCE answered the original question WHY DOES OUR OFFENSE NOT LOOK LIKE a TOP 5 OFFENSE with Jay as QB...You see Norv's offense is a top 5 rated offense...you keep changing it to why weren't we 22nd in passing which is virtually as bad as 26th when the original point is why dopes our offense not look like Rams KC Dallas or Wash which all were top 5 Offenses under Norv's system!
Keep changing the subject to Chan...it gets you nowhere cause eventually I will show you what Chan's offenses normally rank and ask you why they didn't look as good with Jay in them either!
So mention Chan again go ahead!
No YOU don't know the rest of us do...
We all know what will happen....
a third of a TD, 2.3 INTs and about 130 yards passing in a first round loss...
If AJ is going to save us why not start him from the get go?
Funny you want him to go in his first game in the playoffs but not the regular season...
How can he prove himself if he never gets a chance? AJ isn't getting it...he is starting and playing with second stringers...and we all know that even if he has better success than Jay it will be dismissed by the excuse he did it against second rate talent...
Jimmy James
You sit on a throne of lies!
You really want to make this asinine argument? Go read the thread about whether we're going to have a fair QB competition.
Jay was not beaten by Huard in preseason. DW had the time before Jay got injured to evaluate him, and he had DH's extremely poor play in preseason to evaluate against Jay's performance in one half that resulted in TDs (and INTs to be fair). DH is the very QB that you wrongly suggest that Jay is. He was capable of nothing more than being the babysitter on a losing team. If you want to blame anybody for DH not starting, you have to blame DH and his impotent preseason performance. I hope that if Jay looks that way in the time he gets in preseason, the team gets rid of him.
This is ludicrous. I am not Dean_Siu.
Hey -- we kept DH as the backup, and it worked out. The way this played out actually supports my argument. You would have us with JF and some stiff off the street back in 2000...
DH beat himself for the job. If Jay does the same, you won't hear any complaint from me about AJ starting. I just want to make sure AJ is at least as good as Jay is if Jay comes into camp as strong as he has over the past few seasons. You know -- the seasons when he kept his job over your buddies Ray Lucas and Brian Griese.
No, I wouldn't. I didn't call for Huard's release.
I see a desperate man trying to read duplicity and bias into my statements when there is none. As I said before, try to read my statements to reconcile, not to imply some sort of irrationality.
You go on believing that. That's how one guy went 7-3 and the other went 2-4. Give me the 7-3 guy if the two of them are supposedly the same.
There is no measure of what anybody does by himself in football. Every player depends on others to get their job done.
We had an 1800 yard rusher last year? Yes, I know you meant 2002.
It all goes back to Norv vs. Chan. It's the same Jay, so you can't attribute the obvious decrease in Jay's play based on the results and the improvement in skill position players on Jay. It's on Norv.
Let's be a little more specific here. Do you understand the notion of control variables? Jay is a control variable because he is the same guy in 2000 as in 2001 as in 2002 as in 2003. Differences can't be him -- they have to come from either personnel or coaching changes. Are you suggesting that the personnel in 2002-2003 are worse, or do you want to suggest it is the coaching? That is the real question.
11-5 is the best this team may be able to do. If so, it is due to the play of the team. The D needs to step it up and play like the unit we think they are instead of just a very good unit. Jay needs to step up his game or make way for somebody who can. The OLine needs to improve. The coaching needs to improve. The FO needs to improve in terms of who is drafted and signed. Jay is but one element in this.
If you accept that Jay is the best QB on the team in 2002 and in 2003 (which you waffle about), you're damned right that I do. Norv is powerless to do anything other than that. He can't play QB himself. He can't bring another guy in because he isn't in charge of that. The one thing he can do is find a damned system that works with the personnel he is given. If he couldn't do that, he shouldn't be working at the pro level again. Knowing one good system isn't enough for success as a coach -- you have to actually adapt to your personnel to be a success.
Jay is good at using his mobility to buy time and hit receivers in an offense like the one Chan ran. He isn't a great QB by any means even in that system, but I don't think it's inappropriate to suggest that Jay could have led a top 15 offense under that system if he had Ricky's 1800 yards, Randy, and an experienced Chambers while running it.
I'd love to know how you feel about the QBs who have finished behind him each year. You are an irrational Jay hater, and you just showed your true colors right here. For you, this is all about finding a guy to blame. Well, I hope it's as innocent as that. Others have suggested in the past that there are anti-Semites who hate Jay irrationally just due to his religious/ethnic background. I have always hoped that this wasn't true, but it is a dark possibility.
This is again a ridiculous argument. Chan certainly didn't do so.
Those numbers you compiled don't look much worse to me. 9-12 is much closer to 8-10 than it is to 2-4.
The team was worse overall. Look at the records. If you want to justify Jay not looking as good as being excused by other gains, I think that's an interesting argument that in the final analysis is shot down by the end results.
If you're really going to be too lazy to go back and read it for yourself, I have no choice but to answer again. We don't have the personnel for #2. We don't have it at QB or OLine. We don't have it at #2 WR (well, we do with Boston now, but we're talking 2002-2003). If we were shooting for a #2 offense, I blame the FO for not supplying the parts. I really don't think we were shooting for it, though. Only Norv thought that we were. Well, you did too I suppose.
DING DING DING
That's his job when he only has crappy QBs.
If you respond again as though I'm suggesting that Jay Fiedler is Troy Aikman, we will be ending this again. GET IT THROUGH YOUR THICK SKULL THAT I AM NOT SUGGESTING JAY IS A GREAT QB.
It is possible that AJ will need time learning the system during the season before he is ready. If so, Jay needs to start until AJ is ready. See -- I don't even necessarily want to hand Jay the job for the whole year even if AJ looks worse than he does.
I don't think that funny at all. We have to GET TO THE PLAYOFFS in order to have a chance at winning like you want us to.
Show me. You're the only person suggesting this is happening instead of the bona fide QB competition that we have been assured is on.
Wait and see.
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All 5 of them?
Or just the last 3?
Tell us how good would Norvs Offense be if we had any of the 25 that are better than Jay?
Would he need to change a top 5 Offensive system to be 22nd in passing?
DING DING DONG
So Jay is a Crappy QB...so why do you want him here and why do you blame norv for his crappiness?
And what can he do to make Jay throw a pass further than 10 yards? Throw it for him? Put magnets in the ball? Call 140 screens like Chan did?
Well you admitted Jay is a crappy QB so I guess there is no more need to discuss this anymore...
Why did we go through all of this pretense like Jay was going to help us in some way when you knew all along he is crappy...
And why do you blame a coach for not changing a successful system just to get to a crappy 22nd ranked instead of blaming and changing the QB so it could reach it's full top 5 potential?
Your done...
You finallycame to your senses....
You admitted Jay is a crappy QB!
So why are you defending him and wanting to keep him here again? Because we need a crappy QB for what again?
Jay sucks and should be sent packing right?
Jimmy James
You sit on a throne of lies!
Based on our 2002 team, if we had a top 5 or maybe even top 10 QB, it might look like that one year in Washington or that three year stretch in Dallas. Anything less than that, and you're going to get results somewhere between Trent Green, Gus Frerotte, and Jay Fiedler.
Based on 2003, I don't think Peyton Manning could have gotten the O to #2. Even he needs a line in front of him.
Yeah, he very likely would. There are some weak armed QBs who run the WCO in front of Jay who probably wouldn't do much better than Jay. I guess you'd have Norv run his offense with them as well.
Let's back up here a sec. I'm not blaming anybody for Jay's lack of skill. I blame the FO for not bringing anybody better in, thus making him the guy who started. I blame Norv for not taking account of the limited talent he had available and not doing better with it in light of the comparison with the Chan years.
As to Jay, I don't blame him for his lack of skill, either. I think he would admit that it's not always his problem and that he sometimes doesn't make exactly the right choice. If you want to blame him for that, fine. You can't blame him for not having more skill, though. It makes as little sense as blaming Dan Marino for not putting the whole team on his shoulders and winning one for us. I believe you will have a problem with this, and I just can't wait to see what it is. Why do you blame Jay for not having skill?
Is Jay good enough to be the starter us Miami fans deserve? No. What we have been discussing is basically who is to blame for that. You say Jay, and I say that is nuts.
In addition, we have been discussing whether Jay is good enough to have the backup/starter if something happens to AJ (including AJ sucking Ray Lucas/Damon Huard style). You say no. I say yes. You point to what he has been paid and what he is getting paid. I say that's disturbing but is a separate question, particularly in light of the 2004 cap effect on cutting him at this moment.
If screens are what it takes, yes.
I really honestly don't know where you got that I was a "Jaybot". It's not like my opinion of Jay has changed today. He is a marginal starter and has been in my book for a relatively long time. If that's all you needed to know, I really wish we had addressed that earlier.
He can help us. The two aren't mutually exclusive. We're not going to have Bledsoe and Brady on this team. We have to be a little realistic about who will be called in to complete the game if AJ goes out or to complete the season if AJ sucks badly.
Hold on, man. Who should Norv had seen starting? Ray? Brian? Sage? What is your honest answer about the situation. You have indicated at times that Jay was the best we had, but you abandon it whenever it is convenient...
phinsfan1221
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why waste time defending jay
LIQUID24
hi
to think this thread started 3 weeks ago...
spazzolian
A.D.D. Activist
The point is people... Jay Fiedler is the best QB on our team. The Dolphins play better with him, and win more with than we lose. I'm all for bring in some new talent, but untill we have a clear idea that AJ Feeley is really all that he's cracked up to be, I say... lets support the big eared guy... he's not as bad as you guys make him out to be.
Spazzo...
Spazzo...
Jimmy James
You sit on a throne of lies!
That's what I'm saying. Thanks. :)
Jimmy James
You sit on a throne of lies!
Why waste time here at all? I can't deny that I enjoy this stuff.
R_t_Kraken
Active Roster
I think a better question here is...
Why do so many people waste time bashing Jay??:fire:
R_t_Kraken
Active Roster
Wow, That was short and sweet, and the point I've been trying to get across. I guess I just don't have a way with words.
Good post.
Will you find that guy if you keep trotting Jay out there? NO!
Norv system requires an accurate QB not a strong armed one as Aikman and Johnson prove...Neither are what you call cannons for arms...Better than Jay maybe but then again who isn't?
Maybe if we got rid of Jay there would be room on the roster to bring someone else in and give them a chance! You don't seem to want to do that! And what about being 22nd in passing is that much better than being 26th...A whole 221 yards better? That is what makes you RATHER change a System than a QB?
Maybe we should have stuck with Lamar and changed the system since he was only off 200 yards off his previous year too...
You keep saying Chan did better but it came down to a whole 13 yards better or a first down per game!
For that we should change a top offensive system and not the QB....
What about being able to climb to the mighty heights of 22nd in passing makes him a good choice?
And your worried that another QB would be worse? What is the sense of having a QB who can only throw screens?
Not only do you want him here you want him to be the starter...Anyone who wants Jay to be here is a jaybot!
Anyoine who makes excuses for Jay and blames the rest of the team is a Jaybot...Anyone who thinks we can make the playoffs with Jay is a Jaybot!
Now what are you?
Because we don't have the roster spot or the money because Jay is taking up 6 mil this year 3 mil next and a roster spot!
you can't get better if you keep sticking with crap!
Given 4 years anyone of them would have eventually learned the system and done better than Jay...but lets for now just say SAGE....
Now show me some numbers that prove Sage is not as good as Jay....I dare you!
Because he is holding back this team from it's destiny as a SB entrant!
Never WINS against a playoff team with his passing but he often costs us the game with it!
So who do you care more about? One player or the REST of the team who IS performing and winning all those games you claim Jay wins for us?