Pouncey says the team got the message

[finmann]

And it's easier for that to happen when you'll be a multi-millionaire regardless of how well you play.

What it takes to counter that is a winning team culture in which there is leadership among the players that holds the roster accountable for a high level of play, in the name of a long-term mutual goal the team wants to reach (i.e., the Super Bowl). I'm not sure this team has that.

What it does have, seemingly, is a head coach who feels he needs to send a shockwave through the roster about this time each year, to have the same kind of effect of shaping people up, but that isn't anywhere near the optimal way for a team to function in the NFL.

Bill Belichick rarely if ever has to send such shockwaves through his roster, because there is a nucleus of leadership among the players that holds the roster accountable. In fact when you simply come to New England as a player, it's understood that you'll be giving 110% at all times. The winning culture there holds players accountable, and there is no such laziness as alluded to in the post I quoted above.

This is why New England is a perennial contender, despite wide variations in talent over the years. That is the stuff of dynasties.

What we have here, rather, is the stuff of wide variations in play, where one week the team makes an improbable comeback against a good team (Atlanta), and the next it gets shut out and thoroughly embarrassed. There is no team identity here.

Yes...but Bill Belichick has developed that winning culture over time....a long time. This is Gase's second season with the team, and the winning culture you speak of how is he suppose to do that beg the players to study, pay them high salaries when they don't do it, allow them to storm out of meetings when they don't get the ball, ignore the problem?...what? Problems are like cancer, you got catch it early and get rid of it. If you are going to build a winning team based on a winning culture, you first have to change the culture for the better so you can win. Anyone that's not down with that will go to another team or get cut. Trust that Gase knows what he is doing, give the man the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Shula Fan]

I'm not saying cutting and trading them was a mistake. I'm saying at some point some team leaders are going to have to step up and hold such players accountable to a performance consistent with a winning team culture, rather than making it so that the head coach has to function in that manner year after year.

The optimal way for a team to function in the NFL is for the players to do that job, week in and week out in the locker room, not the head coach.

The players need to jolt each other into place day in and day out, rather than making it so that the head coach has to conduct some massive jolt early in each season.

You're absolutely right. NE wins with new people because TB doesn't allow mis-steps even in practice. Pittsburg is always in good shape because of the culture they breed. It could be why Timmons wanted to flee early on.

This team is missing a Ray Lewis or Tom Brady personality to keep everyone in line and make them execute on every play. Even the coaching staff could use a Mike Singletary kind of coach to help Gase.

 

[<O>]

Yes...but Bill Belichick has developed that winning culture over time....a long time. This is Gase's second season with the team, and the winning culture you speak of how is he suppose to do that beg the players to study, pay them high salaries when they don't do it, allow them to storm out of meetings when they don't get the ball, ignore the problem?...what? Problems are like cancer, you got catch it early and get rid of it. If you are going to build a winning team based on a winning culture, you first have to change the culture for the better so you can win. Anyone that's not down with that will go to another team or get cut. Trust that Gase knows what he is doing, give the man the benefit of the doubt.

As I said in the post above yours I quoted, I'm placing no blame on Gase here. He's doing what needs to be done. But as "gunn34" said in the post above this one, at some point that function of holding players accountable is going to have to be assumed by the leadership among the players, if this team is ever going to get over the hump from experiencing a revolving door of head coaches, to a stable head coach with a stable and consistent winning team culture.

The team could just as easily splinter off in the wrong direction, resulting in the eventual firing of Gase, as it could develop the leadership among the players necessary to achieve what I've been saying here. Whether leadership among the players develops and is maintained will determine that team trajectory either way.

 

[J. David Wannyheimer]

Weird discussion. Many successful teams, like the Patriots, bench, cut, and trade players for not being with the program.

It's nice to think that team leadership will magically make guys with personality issues suddenly morph into selfless team players, but that's not always the case, especially if the players in question are good and they know it. Good example of that, look at the Jets last season and this season. That team was a dumpster fire in 2016 and then got rid of two of its best, most talented football players in Sheldon Richardson and Brandon Marshall. And yet, the Jets are much better in 2017 than in 2016. Why? Because they cut out the cancer.

Everything... EVERYTHING that has been leaked about Jay Ajayi's behavior indicates that he had a real, serious problem, and even over a year of the head coach bending over backward to accommodate him couldn't resolve things. At some point, you have to just shrug your shoulders and admit that this particular player... has a problem.

 

[finmann]

As I said in the post above yours I quoted, I'm placing no blame on Gase here. He's doing what needs to be done. But as "gunn34" said in the post above this one, at some point that function of holding players accountable is going to have to be assumed by the leadership among the players, if this team is ever going to get over the hump from experiencing a revolving door of head coaches, to a stable head coach with a stable and consistent winning team culture.

The team could just as easily splinter off in the wrong direction, resulting in the eventual firing of Gase, as it could develop the leadership among the players necessary to achieve what I've been saying here. Whether leadership among the players develops and is maintained will determine that team trajectory either way.

Well said brother and I agree....question is how do we build those leaders from the players on this team? We got injuries, wanna be rap stars, lack of players studying...take your pick.......

 

[<O>]

Well said brother and I agree....question is how do we build those leaders from the players on this team? We got injuries, wanna be rap stars, lack of players studying...take your pick.......

What helps tremendously is if you have a quarterback who functions as a team leader and an extension of the head coach with the other players in the locker room, and he's signed to a long-term contract.

At that point he's your nucleus of leadership, and you simply keep players long-term who align with him and echo his message. When there is a critical mass of such players, you've established a winning team culture, and then the trick of course is sustaining it.

And quarterback isn't the only position where that can happen, but it makes it a lot easier to achieve. Think of the nucleus of leadership Seattle has -- Wilson, Thomas, Chancellor, Baldwin, Bennett, Wagner, Sherman. All long-term players on the team, who live to make the team function at a high level. Nobody is coming to Seattle without feeling the effect of that culture and falling into line with it.

This is why you never see Seattle perform poorly for any lengthy stretch of time. When the team falters, those players function to get it back where it belongs, and they do that by having an effect on the other players around them. There is no need for the head coach to cut or trade anybody to have that effect.

 

[TheJetsBlow]

How many messages does this team need? It seems like they "need a message" every damn year to start playing, whether it was firing Philbin, cutting the turnstiles last year midseason, or trading Ajayi.

Self-motivation doesn't seem to be a thing with this group.

 

[<O>]

Weird discussion. Many successful teams, like the Patriots, bench, cut, and trade players for not being with the program.

It's nice to think that team leadership will magically make guys with personality issues suddenly morph into selfless team players, but that's not always the case, especially if the players in question are good and they know it. Good example of that, look at the Jets last season and this season. That team was a dumpster fire in 2016 and then got rid of two of its best, most talented football players in Sheldon Richardson and Brandon Marshall. And yet, the Jets are much better in 2017 than in 2016. Why? Because they cut out the cancer.

Everything... EVERYTHING that has been leaked about Jay Ajayi's behavior indicates that he had a real, serious problem, and even over a year of the head coach bending over backward to accommodate him couldn't resolve things. At some point, you have to just shrug your shoulders and admit that this particular player... has a problem.

True, but Jay Ajayi alone isn't the reason this team is "bipolar." The team is "bipolar" (i.e., has wide variations in performance) because, in addition to Ajayi's problems, there is no nucleus of player leadership necessary to create consistent performance.

Notice that nearly the entire offense, in addition to Ajayi, has been called out by Gase for not putting in the effort necessary to be successful. Surely all of those players don't have personality problems. Rather, they're just "comfortable" within a team culture in which personal effort isn't a strong enough mantra.

The average NFL player is neither a team leader nor a cancer. The average player in the NFL can be influenced by strong team leadership to fall in line with a winning team culture and give 110%, and that's what wins in a league with this much parity in physical talent.

 

[finmann]

What helps tremendously is if you have a quarterback who functions as a team leader and an extension of the head coach with the other players in the locker room, and he's signed to a long-term contract.

At that point he's your nucleus of leadership, and you simply keep players long-term who align with him and echo his message. When there is a critical mass of such players, you've established a winning team culture, and then the trick of course is sustaining it.

And quarterback isn't the only position where that can happen, but it makes it a lot easier to achieve. Think of the nucleus of leadership Seattle has -- Wilson, Thomas, Chancellor, Baldwin, Bennett, Wagner, Sherman. All long-term players on the team, who live to make the team function at a high level. Nobody is coming to Seattle without feeling the effect of that culture and falling into line with it.

This is why you never see Seattle perform poorly for any lengthy stretch of time. When the team falters, those players function to get it back where it belongs, and they do that by having an effect on the other players around them. There is no need for the head coach to cut or trade anybody to have that effect.

You made a couple of good points and I want to make sure I understand you correctly.
We have a QB signed to a long term contract, his name Tannehill. Are you saying Tannehill is not an effective leader?
This goes back to drafting. Drafting the right type of player (who can play) who is a high character guy and a potential leader of your football team.
Do you think our scouting department should be replaced along with the GM? If you are looking for a nucleus of leaders in Miami, it doesn't exist. We have to win first for that to happen.
You see where I am going with this? changing a culture takes time and it requires a leader (coach) who has the vision to put that in place. It travels down hill from him. I hate the term player friendly coach, players tend to get comfortable and winning becomes secondary. Gase has to demand that veteran players not only play well but help take control of the locker room so incidents like this don't happen.

 

[Shula Fan]

Weird discussion. Many successful teams, like the Patriots, bench, cut, and trade players for not being with the program.

It's nice to think that team leadership will magically make guys with personality issues suddenly morph into selfless team players, but that's not always the case, especially if the players in question are good and they know it. Good example of that, look at the Jets last season and this season. That team was a dumpster fire in 2016 and then got rid of two of its best, most talented football players in Sheldon Richardson and Brandon Marshall. And yet, the Jets are much better in 2017 than in 2016. Why? Because they cut out the cancer.

Everything... EVERYTHING that has been leaked about Jay Ajayi's behavior indicates that he had a real, serious problem, and even over a year of the head coach bending over backward to accommodate him couldn't resolve things. At some point, you have to just shrug your shoulders and admit that this particular player... has a problem.

You're right that sometimes a team just has to cut a player. I look at Moss when he went to the pats. He was considered a cancer but fell in line with the pats. That actually surprised me too.

I think we need to draft guys who are good fits and have that kind of personality to get the other players fired up. It would be great if our QB would do it, but I don't think Tanny is that kind of guy.

 

[finmann]

Self-motivation doesn't seem to be a thing with this group.

No..and you know why? The Dolphins are known throughout the league to be a team that overpays for players they want, that's good and bad.

 

[<O>]

You made a couple of good points and I want to make sure I understand you correctly.
We have a QB signed to a long term contract, his name Tannehill. Are you saying Tannehill is not an effective leader?
This goes back to drafting. Drafting the right type of player (who can play) who is a high character guy and a potential leader of your football team.
Do you think our scouting department should be replaced along with the GM? If you are looking for a nucleus of leaders in Miami, it doesn't exist. We have to win first for that to happen.
You see where I am going with this? changing a culture takes time and it requires a leader (coach) who has the vision to put that in place. It travels down hill from him. I hate the term player friendly coach, players tend to get comfortable and winning becomes secondary. Gase has to demand that veteran players not only play well but help take control of the locker room so incidents like this don't happen.

Everything you're saying is true, but notice that Joe Philbin attempted the same thing by ridding the team of players like Brandon Marshall, Vontae Davis, and Chad Johnson, when he thought their behavior was inconsistent with the "professionalism" he emphasized. And notice as well that Joe Philbin lasted a mere 3.5 years with the team.

So, the point is that getting rid of supposed "cancers" isn't sufficient in its own right. Leadership must develop among the players to create a winning team culture.

And you're right -- all of that does take time, effort, and precision, and it probably happens throughout the league less often than not. My main point here is simply that cutting or trading players, alone, although necessary at times (like this one with Ajayi) doesn't do the trick. Leadership among the players must develop somehow, some way.

 

[<O>]

You're right that sometimes a team just has to cut a player. I look at Moss when he went to the pats. He was considered a cancer but fell in line with the pats. That actually surprised me too.

I think we need to draft guys who are good fits and have that kind of personality to get the other players fired up. It would be great if our QB would do it, but I don't think Tanny is that kind of guy.

...and to the tune of a nearly undefeated season. That's the power of a winning team culture.

And a team culture can also function in the opposite direction, when poor leadership among the players does to a team what it's doing to the Dolphins this year.

 

[finmann]

Everything you're saying is true, but notice that Joe Philbin attempted the same thing by ridding the team of players like Brandon Marshall, Vontae Davis, and Chad Johnson, when he thought their behavior was inconsistent with the "professionalism" he emphasized. And notice as well that Joe Philbin lasted a mere 3.5 years with the team.

So, the point is that getting rid of supposed "cancers" isn't sufficient in its own right. Leadership must develop among the players to create a winning team culture.

And you're right -- all of that does take time, effort, and precision, and it probably happens throughout the league less often than not. My main point here is simply that cutting or trading players, alone, although necessary at times (like this one with Ajayi) doesn't do the trick. Leadership among the players must develop somehow, some way.

Well said......but you didn't answer my questions.

 

[finmann]

...and to the tune of a nearly undefeated season. That's the power of a winning team culture.

And a team culture can also function in the opposite direction, when poor leadership among the players does to a team what it's doing to the Dolphins this year.

I agree with you, but you are being kind...poor leadership? I don't see any leaders for this team from the standpoint of locker room presence. Do you?