Quinn/Russel ... Manning/Leaf Comparison

[phinphanforever]

You are not old enough to remember Montana, Elway, Kelly or Marino in their primes. Brady couldn't touch any of them. Elway and Marino made below average teams into playoff teams by carrying those teams with their arm. Brady cannot do that. He needs the coaching and supporting cast.

\
Perhaps you're too old to suggest that I can't remember. Sorry Gramps but I do rememebr all those players in their prime. I'm also an avid collector of football video. To sugggest that Brady didn't carry his team, or more importantly to suggest that Montana, Kelly or Elway did is a farce. Denver, SF and Buffalo had a lot of talent on those teams. In case you already forgot, let me just list off a few of those names on those teams (and I won't even bother mentioning the Defenses, which were excellent in some cases): Clark, Rice, Craig, Rathman, T Davis, S Sharpe, T Thomas, A Reed....)

 

[wazzy]

Actually it's not rich at all. It's pretty accurate. Both of them have good field vision, set up similarly, are leaders, are mentally very strong, are film hounds, deliver the ball similarly. This isn't just my opinion. It's he opinion of the man who coached both of them and unless you're Charlie Weis (one 's'), the I'd rather go with him on this one and on my own evaluations of Quinn over his 4 year career in South Bend. Which mark my words, is a LOT of tape study.

As good as Tom Brady is, you're in a small minority that thinks he's a better pro than the list you made.

Which big games has Quinn flopped in? Please don't say OSU and LSU. Those defeats were down to the fact that Notre Dame had no business in those games in the first place and that showed on the field. That wasn't Brady Quinn's fault. I'd rather look at how he beat Michigan as a sophomore or brought ND back from 21+ down against MSU or how he drove 87 yards, completing all three passes and then running in from 5 yards away against USC as a junior at games end. You state that he had a bad OL - which he did - but then you refuse to allow Quinn the fact that at times he didn't get time to set up or to work his progressions because he was being smothered. And if Darius Walker was getting shut down, then the onus fell even heavier on his shoulders.

The natural talent thing you bring up is nonsensical. Vick has athletic talent. I'm talking QB talent, intangibles. I mean, was Tom Brady showing off all that talent when Michigan won 4 National Titles and he won back to back to back to back Heisman's during his tenure?

Carson Palmer?? Quinn is much more mobile than Carson, throws much more accurately on the run and doesn't have the deep arm of Palmer. And as for calling him a 'slightly more gifted Joey Harrington', underlines how flawed your argument is. When did Joey last have a 69-14 TD ration over 2 years? Or go 226 throws without a pick?

All I can say is I do not want to be on the opposite end of an argument with Boomber when regarding to football! Man you know your stuff and your updated on everything! With that said I would like Quinn if he slips to us but if he doesn't I really don't want to trade up to get him if we have to give up a lot!

I know a lot of people have a lock on Cleveland grabbing Peterson but now with JLewis being cut if they grabbed him in free agency not only would that piss off a rival it would give them 2 big backs and position filled so they can grab Quinn if they wanted!

 

[Boomer]

If Quinn were as you advertise then I can assure you no one would be talking about him falling to the #9 spot. This isn't just my opinion, it's the opinion (t before he) of several scouts.
And I'm happy that you've done your tape study. So have I but mine has not been coloured by ND propoganda. To suggest that Quinn is as accurate as Brady is a farce. There are serious concerns about Quinn's accuracy when he attempts intermediate to deep throws.


The majority is often wrong. The point is that he's won 3 SBs and he hasn't yet reached the peak of his career.


I'd prefer to focus my attention on how he played in big games this year, and frankly, he wilted like a lilly in the Sahara. Please stop the noise about his O-line. As mentioned before, a great Qb -and let's be clear here, it is YOU who are making the comparisons to the Great Tom Brady- makes his O-line better. I know a lot of QBs who would have hall of fame careers if they were given 6-8 seconds every snap to go through their progressions. Brady makes his own time. Quinn appears to have poor pocket presence.


Apologies to you Boomer the amnesiac. It was You who made the natural talent comparisons. And I agree with your assessment about intangibles but there are many saying Quinn doesn't have that "it" factor.


The comparison to Palmer is a natural one based on their physical attributes. The one to Harrington is based on the fact that both were touted as "saviours" and didn't live up to expectations. Look, I think Quinn has a good chance of having some success in the NFl but to compare him to Brady is a joke.

First of all.....FLMAO @ Notre Dame propaganda. I mean seriously.

Which scouts can you name that are talking about him slipping? Please.....enlighten me. Perhaps you don't understand the draft process and the way that you learn never to believe anything that comes out of the papers and especially from un-named scouts. Matt Leinart fell last season......is he a bad QB?

You believe what you like on what you think you know about Quinn's accuracy. I'll go on watching more than 500 passes of his, if that's OK with you. What's hilarious is that you're summarily ignoring the fact that Brady was mediocre at Michigan and then bashing Quinn because he's not yet won 3 Superbowls.

Which big games this year did he wilt in? As for the rest of the nonsense about the offensive line, it hardly bears a response other than to say that you must be pretty stupid if you think anyone would intonate that a passer needed 6/8 seconds per throw. But bving able to get out of your drop and set up, is a little different, no? But having watched so much non propoganda Irish football, you'd of course know this. I mean when teams shut down Darius Walker and Quinn had two possession types and no true deep threat out wide, allowing superior teams with superior defense to flood the LOS and force him to beat them when throwing 8 and 9 defenders at him.

Palmer and Quinn have similar physical attributes? Really? They're both white and play QB. That's about it. Palmer has a much bigger arm and very little ability to move the pocket and create plays with his feet, unlike Quinn.

Maybe you didn't see that on your hours of copius study watching non-propoganda Notre Damv football?

Lest we not forget that you claimed Tom Brady was a better QB than Montana, Favre and Marino, which sort of destroys your credibility from the get-go.

 

[Geforce]

I'd prefer to focus my attention on how he played in big games this year, and frankly, he wilted like a lilly in the Sahara. Please stop the noise about his O-line. As mentioned before, a great Qb -and let's be clear here, it is YOU who are making the comparisons to the Great Tom Brady- makes his O-line better. I know a lot of QBs who would have hall of fame careers if they were given 6-8 seconds every snap to go through their progressions. Brady makes his own time. Quinn appears to have poor pocket presence.

To a degree this is true BUT if the O-Line doesn't give the QB time to go through his progressions, then no matter how great he his...he will not be effective. Tom Brady showed that this year against us. He got rattled when he was not given enough time to make his reads.

Brady makes his own time? I'm not sure what you are talking about here. Tom Brady is pretty much a pocket passer and relies heavily on his O-Line to give him time to do what he does best...throw passes in the short to immediate areas.

 

[phinphanforever]

First of all.....FLMAO @ Notre Dame propaganda. I mean seriously.

Glad to hear you're laughing because it sounds as though you need it. Maybe it will knock loose some of those cobwebs in your knoggin' cloggin' your reason on Quinn.

Matt Leinart fell last season......is he a bad QB?

I didn't comapre Matt Leinart to Tom Brady. I never said Quinn was a bad Qb, I said he's no Tom Brady.

You believe what you like on what you think you know about Quinn's accuracy. I'll go on watching more than 500 passes of his, if that's OK with you. What's hilarious is that you're summarily ignoring the fact that Brady was mediocre at Michigan and then bashing Quinn because he's not yet won 3 Superbowls.

The reference to the 3 SBs has nothing to do with Quinn. You are making an error in logic. I brought up the 3 SBs to compare Brady to Marino, Elway, Kelly, Montana etc.

Which big games this year did he wilt in?

OSU, Michigan, LSU, USC.....

As for the rest of the nonsense about the offensive line, it hardly bears a response other than to say that you must be pretty stupid if you think anyone would intonate that a passer needed 6/8 seconds per throw.

And you must be pretty stupid to use the word intonate in this context. My point is that it was you who brought up the O-line argument as an excuse for Quinn's play. The great Qbs, like T Brady, don't need excuses.

But bving able to get out of your drop and set up, is a little different, no? But having watched so much non propoganda Irish football, you'd of course know this. I mean when teams shut down Darius Walker and Quinn had two possession types and no true deep threat out wide, allowing superior teams with superior defense to flood the LOS and force him to beat them when throwing 8 and 9 defenders at him.

Tom Brady had A Smith his first year, hardly the next OJ Simpson. He also did not have the greatest of WRs. Again, my point is that comparing Quinn to Brady is ridiculous.

Palmer and Quinn have similar physical attributes? Really? They're both white and play QB. That's about it. Palmer has a much bigger arm and very little ability to move the pocket and create plays with his feet, unlike Quinn.

By physical attributes, I mean, well physical attributes. I thought it was fairly clear what that meant. Quinn is 6 4" and 227 lbs. Palmer is 6 5" 230lbs.
Comparing their arm strengths are athletic skills, and yes, Palmer has a much stronger arm. Quinn's arm is more similar to say, Joey Harrington's.

Lest we not forget that you claimed Tom Brady was a better QB than Montana, Favre and Marino, which sort of destroys your credibility from the get-go.

If you think suggesting that Tom Brady will not go down as the best Qb ever, or even that Brady will be mentioned in the same vein as Montana, Marino or Favre, then I think it is your credibility on the line.
Stop. Take a deep breathe. I know it may hurt, but the fact is that T Brady has won 3 SBs and he's not even 30 years old, the age that most pro athletes, especially QBs, reach their prime.
You yourself have gone on to note the intangibles of QB play. There is no other Qb in the history of the game that possesses these with as much abundance as T Brady. The guy wins the big ones. He comes through in the clutch better than anyone before his time.

 

[phinphanforever]

Brady makes his own time? I'm not sure what you are talking about here. Tom Brady is pretty much a pocket passer and relies heavily on his O-Line to give him time to do what he does best...throw passes in the short to immediate areas.

Brady can slide and shuffle better than anyone. It can give him an extra 2-3 seconds. The only Qb I have ever seen with that kind of pocket presence was Marino. Marino also had the slide/shuffle but he got out of trouble mainly because of his release, which was the quickest ever.
And Tom Brady can do more than throw the short and intermediate pass. He's pretty deadly on the deep one's too.

 

[Geforce]

Brady can slide and shuffle better than anyone. It can give him an extra 2-3 seconds. The only Qb I have ever seen with that kind of pocket presence was Marino. Marino also had the slide/shuffle but he got out of trouble mainly because of his release, which was the quickest ever.
And Tom Brady can do more than throw the short and intermediate pass. He's pretty deadly on the deep one's too.

Brady can slide and shuffle better than anyone? Now you're exaggerating. If Marino is the only QB you've seen with that kind of pocket presence, then you've never really saw Joe Montana and Dan Fouts play plus you really underestimate the pocket presence/awareness of Peyton Manning.

I didn't say he couldn't throw the deep pass, I said the short to intermediate is what he does best.

 

[Boomer]

Glad to hear you're laughing because it sounds as though you need it. Maybe it will knock loose some of those cobwebs in your knoggin' cloggin' your reason on Quinn.

I didn't comapre Matt Leinart to Tom Brady. I never said Quinn was a bad Qb, I said he's no Tom Brady.

The reference to the 3 SBs has nothing to do with Quinn. You are making an error in logic. I brought up the 3 SBs to compare Brady to Marino, Elway, Kelly, Montana etc.

OSU, Michigan, LSU, USC.....


And you must be pretty stupid to use the word intonate in this context. My point is that it was you who brought up the O-line argument as an excuse for Quinn's play. The great Qbs, like T Brady, don't need excuses.


Tom Brady had A Smith his first year, hardly the next OJ Simpson. He also did not have the greatest of WRs. Again, my point is that comparing Quinn to Brady is ridiculous.


By physical attributes, I mean, well physical attributes. I thought it was fairly clear what that meant. Quinn is 6 4" and 227 lbs. Palmer is 6 5" 230lbs.
Comparing their arm strengths are athletic skills, and yes, Palmer has a much stronger arm. Quinn's arm is more similar to say, Joey Harrington's.




If you think suggesting that Tom Brady will not go down as the best Qb ever, or even that Brady will be mentioned in the same vein as Montana, Marino or Favre, then I think it is your credibility on the line.
Stop. Take a deep breathe. I know it may hurt, but the fact is that T Brady has won 3 SBs and he's not even 30 years old, the age that most pro athletes, especially QBs, reach their prime.
You yourself have gone on to note the intangibles of QB play. There is no other Qb in the history of the game that possesses these with as much abundance as T Brady. The guy wins the big ones. He comes through in the clutch better than anyone before his time.

Dude, arguing with you is pointless. You ignore facts, you add 2+2 and make 7. By your logic, Terry Bradshaw is the greatest QB in history and Charles Haley is the best player to ever play. Your 'argument' is so confusing, you're failing to even understand the concept of what's been discussed.

 

[jlfin]

\
Perhaps you're too old to suggest that I can't remember. Sorry Gramps but I do rememebr all those players in their prime. I'm also an avid collector of football video. To sugggest that Brady didn't carry his team, or more importantly to suggest that Montana, Kelly or Elway did is a farce. Denver, SF and Buffalo had a lot of talent on those teams. In case you already forgot, let me just list off a few of those names on those teams (and I won't even bother mentioning the Defenses, which were excellent in some cases): Clark, Rice, Craig, Rathman, T Davis, S Sharpe, T Thomas, A Reed....)

Let's see, you are 27. That means you were 3 yrs old during Marino's rookie year and age 4 during his record breaking year. You must have been an intellectual prodigy.
BTW, I'm 45 and probably in better shape than you. I'm a far cry from gramps. My kids are 12 and 16. Your rebuttal proves you don't remember Elway and Marino ( in their primes). T. Davis and S Sharpe played on Denver's SB teams at the end of Elways career. Elway carried his team to SB's (albeit losses) against the Giants and 49'ers when he was pretty much a one man team. Marino played early in his career with a poor defense and no runing game. Without Marino many of those mid to late 80's Dolphins teams would have probably been drafting in the top 10.

 

[Boomer]

Let's see, you are 27. That means you were 3 yrs old during Marino's rookie year and age 4 during his record breaking year. You must have been an intellectual prodigy.
BTW, I'm 45 and probably in better shape than you. I'm a far cry from gramps. My kids are 12 and 16. Your rebuttal proves you don't remember Elway and Marino ( in their primes). T. Davis and S Sharpe played on Denver's SB teams at the end of Elways career. Elway carried his team to SB's (albeit losses) against the Giants and 49'ers when he was pretty much a one man team. Marino played early in his career with a poor defense and no runing game. Without Marino many of those mid to late 80's Dolphins teams would have probably been drafting in the top 10.

Come off it 'old timer'.......don't you realise he knows more than you and me put together?

We're arguing with a man who at age 3 was able to discern Marino's pocket abilities. I'm not sure I can keep up with that.

 

[phinphanforever]

Dude, arguing with you is pointless. You ignore facts, you add 2+2 and make 7. By your logic, Terry Bradshaw is the greatest QB in history and Charles Haley is the best player to ever play. Your 'argument' is so confusing, you're failing to even understand the concept of what's been discussed.

:sleep:
Reading your drivel is making me sleepy.
By your logic, every team in the NFL save the Patriots and possibly the Colts should be ready to pull a Ditka and trade their entire draft to move up and take Quinn.

 

[phinphanforever]

Let's see, you are 27. That means you were 3 yrs old during Marino's rookie year and age 4 during his record breaking year. You must have been an intellectual prodigy.
BTW, I'm 45 and probably in better shape than you. I'm a far cry from gramps. My kids are 12 and 16. Your rebuttal proves you don't remember Elway and Marino ( in their primes). T. Davis and S Sharpe played on Denver's SB teams at the end of Elways career. Elway carried his team to SB's (albeit losses) against the Giants and 49'ers when he was pretty much a one man team. Marino played early in his career with a poor defense and no runing game. Without Marino many of those mid to late 80's Dolphins teams would have probably been drafting in the top 10.

:sidelol: :sidelol: First, ever hear of video? You should check it out. It's a wonderful technological advancement. I highly suggest you invest. That way you may be able to look at some old game film and refresh your memory when comparing Brady to the others.
Elway took several teams to the SB but don't tell me that he was the only reason. He was the principal reason, yes, but don't forget he didn't win until he had great talent around him.
And on the point of Marino, yes it may be sacriledge on this board, but he wasn't the greatest ever. He was a helluva' Qb, probably in the top 5 of all time, but he's not the best.

 

[phinphanforever]

Come off it 'old timer'.......don't you realise he knows more than you and me put together?

We're arguing with a man who at age 3 was able to discern Marino's pocket abilities. I'm not sure I can keep up with that.

And you would have been 9. Incredible that a 9 year old would have that much insight. You must have been a precocious little fella'.
Sorry for asking, but what happened later on in your life to explain the disapointment?

 

[jlfin]

:sidelol: :sidelol: First, ever hear of video? You should check it out. It's a wonderful technological advancement. I highly suggest you invest. That way you may be able to look at some old game film and refresh your memory when comparing Brady to the others.
Elway took several teams to the SB but don't tell me that he was the only reason. He was the principal reason, yes, but don't forget he didn't win until he had great talent around him.
And on the point of Marino, yes it may be sacriledge on this board, but he wasn't the greatest ever. He was a helluva' Qb, probably in the top 5 of all time, but he's not the best.

I don't have to watch videos, which are nothing more than highlights. You can dispense with the condescension and grow up. I actually watched the 16 game seasons unfold and I watched all of those aforementioned QB's in the regular season and the playoffs before you started grade school. Elway may not have won SB's early in his career, but he won plenty of games, as did Marino without much talent around him. Brady just isn't as physically gifted as those 2. He cannot carry a team with his arm. After winning their 1st SB, BB the following season tried to use Brady in that capacity, but he fell apart and the Pats missed the playoffs.
I'm not knocking Brady, but please don't compare him to guys like Marino and Elway.
Don't be upset because I gotcha on the T. Davis/ S Sharpe thing.

 

[Boomer]

And you would have been 9. Incredible that a 9 year old would have that much insight. You must have been a precocious little fella'.
Sorry for asking, but what happened later on in your life to explain the disapointment?

Having been asked to scout for a former NFL scout and his publication, that precociousness worked in my favour, no?