WVDolphan's Get Real - Today's topic "QB, FA, and the draft"

[dlockz]

It's kind of funny you must admit, that you spent months contending that Wake would not successfully transition to the NFL because few CFL'ers have before but when it comes to an even larger ratio of unsuccessful Big12 QBs making that transition, you don't want to stereotype. :idk: go figure.

Actually these are not even similar examples. The big 12 has many successful nfl players drafted every year in fact most big 12 teams produce more talent every year than the entire cfl. How would top level players that some are qb's have less of an inclination to be successful in the nfl, it just goes in phases. its like saying dont draft a university of miami qb because there hasnt been a good one since Bernie Kosar. This is a very cyclic arguement. People had the same arguement about California qb's until Rodgers was successful. The CFL on the other hand produces at best one nfl starter every year as a league and probably about 5 make nfl teams so comparing the possibility of success of a cfl player to a big 12 player is not a good comparism. How is there an even larger amount of unsuccessful big 12 qb's than even cfl players. Hell Josh Freeman, Blaine Gabbert , Sam Bradford, and Colt McCoy are all NFL starters which is already equal at best to the amount of players that made it to the nfl 53 man rosters from the CFL. Hell up until Rodgers success you could have said the same thing about the Pac 10 but does that mean you would have avoided players from that conference. Now would you like to compare the odds of RG3 being a good nfl qb to the current best defensive player in the cfl whoever that may be considered. Do you actually think those odds are similar of course you dont. I never stereotyped any CFL players , just being the best cfl player means little to nothing in the nfl and except for some extreme longshots most wouldnt even make nfl rosters much less make an impact. So you can rest with your Cam Wake arguement all you want but he is an anomoly and definately not the norm.

 

[moonman]

Agree almost 100%, and that piece on Big 12 QBs is super interesting. I could never pinpoint why but I'm wondering if that's why I was never sold on Sam Bradford. I feel like maybe Flynn can be good but I have his ceiling at very good and that's about it. Something about him coming in here and being truly elite just doesn't add up, and it's probably due to the sample size we're dealing with.

 

[Phantom]

Thanks.

 

[Zounds]

Its the time of year when the phins are once again faced with the decision of what to do at the QB position....

I think I agree with just about everything here...Flynn blows, drafting Richardson, RG3 not worthy of a top pick, drafting a QB, ect.

Maybe the only thing I dont agree with is signing Manning. I'd rather us draft a QB and let Matt Moore start for 1 more year. I dont care about a quick fix for this team. I want long term winning.

 

[Vaark]

Actually these are not even similar examples. The big 12 has many successful nfl players drafted every year in fact most big 12 teams produce more talent every year than the entire cfl. How would top level players that some are qb's have less of an inclination to be successful in the nfl, it just goes in phases. its like saying dont draft a university of miami qb because there hasnt been a good one since Bernie Kosar. This is a very cyclic arguement. People had the same arguement about California qb's until Rodgers was successful. The CFL on the other hand produces at best one nfl starter every year as a league and probably about 5 make nfl teams so comparing the possibility of success of a cfl player to a big 12 player is not a good comparism. How is there an even larger amount of unsuccessful big 12 qb's than even cfl players. Hell Josh Freeman, Blaine Gabbert , Sam Bradford, and Colt McCoy are all NFL starters which is already equal at best to the amount of players that made it to the nfl 53 man rosters from the CFL. Hell up until Rodgers success you could have said the same thing about the Pac 10 but does that mean you would have avoided players from that conference. Now would you like to compare the odds of RG3 being a good nfl qb to the current best defensive player in the cfl whoever that may be considered. Do you actually think those odds are similar of course you dont. I never stereotyped any CFL players , just being the best cfl player means little to nothing in the nfl and except for some extreme longshots most wouldnt even make nfl rosters much less make an impact. So you can rest with your Cam Wake arguement all you want but he is an anomoly and definately not the norm.

Outside of Ferrigamo back when the the dinosaurs roamed the NFL, Bradford is the only successful Big 10/12 or whatever QB, and that's debatable since his first year was 8-8 and last season was awful ( I know he was with an awful team but if you think about it, how different is that from Moore's background?). McCoy is a bust. We're talking QBs and in the last 10 years, not conference players and bottom-line there have been more successful CFL'ers making the transition than there have Big 12 QBs despite how they burned it up in college. So I stand by my analogy and comparison. If you're gonna generalize on one, then be consistent. My point is don't accuse others of painting a negative generalization while you spent months aggressively arguing the same thing about Wake.

 

[dlockz]

Outside of Ferrigamo back when the the dinosaurs roamed the NFL, Bradford is the only successful Big 10/12 or whatever QB, and that's debatable since his first year was 8-8 and last season was awful ( I know he was with an awful team but if you think about it, how different is that from Moore's background?). McCoy is a bust. We're talking QBs and in the last 10 years, not conference players and bottom-line there have been more successful CFL'ers making the transition than there have Big 12 QBs despite how they burned it up in college. So I stand by my analogy and comparison. If you're gonna generalize on one, then be consistent. My point is don't accuse others of painting a negative generalization while you spent months aggressively arguing the same thing about Wake.

i had on opinion on wake based on his performance ina league that produces less nfl ready players than the sunbelt conference. I did not paint a negative generilization i painted a fact on the probability of his success. Now if you say the big 12 hasnt produced any productive qb's thats one thing but the comment was made that RG3 blows , not that the odds are he wont be a good qb. I never said Wake was an awful player I just doubted he would have as much success in the nfl as he did, there is abig difference. As bad as the big 12 qb's have been at times there are still at least as many big 12 qb's starting in the nfl as total cfl players starting in the nfl.

 

[MarshallFin1]

ppl saying rg3 isnt worth a top pick are in for a surprise. Remember that qb aaron rodgers that dropped down to the 2nd round of the draft that ppl thought werent going to be that good? yea i remember. Cam newton is another one, dude is making carolina a threat again, thats how important the qb position is to a team. It can be make you a threat again instantly but miami fans still wanna stick with the patching things up with old qb's like manning/culpepper/ferrorte, im sick of it, peyton manning is great and all but i want to draft a young qb / matt flynn and go the young route. Chad henne was young but we all know that guy sucked even in college.

 

[NY8123]

ppl saying rg3 isnt worth a top pick are in for a surprise. Remember that qb aaron rodgers that dropped down to the 2nd round of the draft that ppl thought werent going to be that good? yea i remember. Cam newton is another one, dude is making carolina a threat again, thats how important the qb position is to a team. It can be make you a threat again instantly but miami fans still wanna stick with the patching things up with old qb's like manning/culpepper/ferrorte, im sick of it, peyton manning is great and all but i want to draft a young qb / matt flynn and go the young route. Chad henne was young but we all know that guy sucked even in college.

The people saying RGIII won't make it are basing their opinion on the fact that no Big 12 QB has had success transitioning to the NFL ranks.

Unlike Rogers who played in the Pac 12 and Newton who played in the SEC (both deemed much tougher divisions than the Big 12) and both the Pac 12 and SEC have generated successful NFL QB's.

At some point some QB from the Big 12 will make the transition, whether it is RGIII or not remains to be seen.

 

[Rhody Phins Fan]

1) He's coming off a serious injury and some surgeries......

Fair point. However, have I mentioned he's Peyton ****ing Manning? Were not talking about some run of the mill scrub like Matt Flynn here. Peyton Manning is an all time great. The guy can play. Even if he's 90% of what he was 3 years ago, he is still the QB we have needed for a while now. Guys this good just arent available through FA but once every 5-10 years. It takes a special circumstance for this to happen.

90% of what Peyton has been over his past three healthy seasons is a QB with an 85.86 qb rating. That is worse than Matt Moore.

 

[minus]

90% of what Peyton has been over his past three healthy seasons is a QB with an 85.86 qb rating. That is worse than Matt Moore.

It's Peyton **** Manning!!! I'm all in for Manning. Manning ends up some where else then I would much rather stick to Moore than go for 1 game wonder Flynn. I've feeling he will end up being a super bust wherever he goes.

 

[Vaark]

i had on opinion on wake based on his performance ina league that produces less nfl ready players than the sunbelt conference. I did not paint a negative generilization i painted a fact on the probability of his success. Now if you say the big 12 hasnt produced any productive qb's thats one thing but the comment was made that RG3 blows , not that the odds are he wont be a good qb. I never said Wake was an awful player I just doubted he would have as much success in the nfl as he did, there is abig difference. As bad as the big 12 qb's have been at times there are still at least as many big 12 qb's starting in the nfl as total cfl players starting in the nfl.

I'll grant you didn't say outright that Wake wouldn't be successful, but you not only drew a line in the sand, but an actual trench when arguing that the improbability his future success based on the experiences of other CFL players who've tried. You were generalizing then as you're taking others to task for doing so presently with RG3.

Now if you want to talk QBs, despite the offensive preeminance of the conference and success of conference studs like Graham Herrald and Zac Robinson, the fact remains that since the 70s, only Vince Ferragamo was an unqualified success taking the rams to the SB. Bradford had a .500 season and then an awful one and McCoy has been a failure after being given a legitimate opportunity to succeed. Compare that to successful CFL QBs overlapping the Ferragamo 70s til the present: Flutie, Jeff Garcia, Thiesman, Kapp,(more or less) and of course one of the greatest QBs of all time: Warren Moon. One can say that based on generalities that CFL QBs have a greater chance of becoming a successful NFL QB than do Big10/12 QBs no matter their success. Doesn't account for anomalies like Bradford might end up being or Vince Young was for awhile, and ditto RG3 (whom I personally like). It's just that your generalization regarding CFL players resonates as loudly or softly in lockstep with some others' predictive generalization about Big12 QBs. IMO, not much difference, especially when it comes to QBs. :idk:

 

[dlockz]

I'll grant you didn't say outright that Wake wouldn't be successful, but you not only drew a line in the sand, but an actual trench when arguing that the improbability his future success based on the experiences of other CFL players who've tried. You were generalizing then as you're taking others to task for doing so presently with RG3.

Now if you want to talk QBs, despite the offensive preeminance of the conference and success of conference studs like Graham Herrald and Zac Robinson, the fact remains that since the 70s, only Vince Ferragamo was an unqualified success taking the rams to the SB. Bradford had a .500 season and then an awful one and McCoy has been a failure after being given a legitimate opportunity to succeed. Compare that to successful CFL QBs overlapping the Ferragamo 70s til the present: Flutie, Jeff Garcia, Thiesman, Kapp,(more or less) and of course one of the greatest QBs of all time: Warren Moon. One can say that based on generalities that CFL QBs have a greater chance of becoming a successful NFL QB than do Big10/12 QBs no matter their success. Doesn't account for anomalies like Bradford might end up being or Vince Young was for awhile, and ditto RG3 (whom I personally like). It's just that your generalization regarding CFL players resonates as loudly or softly in lockstep with some others' predictive generalization about Big12 QBs. IMO, not much difference, especially when it comes to QBs. :idk:

The CFL quarterbacks you mention are from a different era when they were actually competing with the NFL for major talent. This era of the cfl is much less likely to produce an NFL qb but I suspect you will have a Kurt Warner type story at one point. The CFL right now is for players that at best practice squad material and most of these guys are in the cfl are there because they couldnt make practice squads. As good as Wake is now he didnt even make it through preseason with the giants and not one other team came calling even for practice squad, thats how he ended up in the cfl and that was a couple of years later. Now even though I call it as I see it on the CFL talent level does not mean I dont think that over time some players will develop in that league to a level where they are nfl caliber. Back to your point about CFL qb's , at one point the CFl signed top nfl draft picks in fact our own David Overstreet but now its a very minor feeding ground to the nfl. I will say if a qb was in canada completing 72 percent of his passes with a 5 to 1 td to int ratio and averaging 10 yards per attempt while running for 700 yards I would be quite intrgued by this guy. I have admitted that I didnt see Wake coming in and being this good and reality not one nfl team thought he would be this good or we would have had a much bigger bidding war to sign him. This wasnt the first time a guy in Canda was a pass rushing terror and who can judge anyone against linemen of at best practice squad level. This is about the current NFL and right now there are at least as many if not more Big 12 starting qb's than CFl players that are starting in this league. At this point I cant say that McCoy, Bradford, Freeman and Blaine Gabbert are all young and way to early top say any of them is a bust.

 

[dlockz]

So by this logic which could be true Troy Aikman would never have been a good qb if he had not transferred from Okalahoma

 

[jacquesstrap]

I disagree with your opinion of RGIII. I think he will be a dynamic QB and will do as well as Cam Newton.

 

[Roman529]

Its the time of year when the phins are once again faced with the decision of what to do at the QB position. Its an annual tradition at this point. Most of you who have been following FH for a while now will be aware of the fact that when this topic is due to be discussed, WVDolphan is always right, and most everyone else is wrong. However this season is a little different. It seems that the correct move to make for the phins is so obvious that most everyone has it right. Nevertheless, there seems to be a few bird brains flying around who are a bit lost, so a Get Real thread is in order.

After examining all of the options available to the phins at QB, there is but one smart move to make. That is of course to IMMEDIATELY sign Peyton Manning upon his release tomorrow. Lets discuss the reasons why.......

1) He's Peyton ****ing MANNING! You have watched football the last dozen or so years right? That is all. :thanks:
.

You had me right there WV....and that's where you should have stopped!!!!! :3w:

Seriously....he is Peyton F-ing Manning....enough said. Can he win us a SB?.....I think so. I am sick of always saying "Wait till next year." NEXT YEAR is this year.....2012!!!! It's our year. Ross better not muck it up.