AFC East breakdown

[nyjunc]

What was the Jets record in the first half of the season and the second half of the season?

First 8 weeks: 4-4
Last 8 weels: 6-2

Clearly the improvement of the defense was the reason the Jets made the playoffs. If they don't improve, the Jets likely go 8-8. Even giving up 24 PPG is better than the Viking's defense most years.

chad kept us afloat, kept us in games while the D was adjusting to the new scheme. W/o Chad last year we probably win about 6 games.

What the hell does that mean. The point is that some years 9-7 is enough to get in and some years 10-6 is not. Which team was better? IMO, the team that finished 10-6 was the better team and had the misfortune of missing the playoffs because the competition in the conference was tougher that year.

Th team that finsihd 10-6 MIGHT be better than another year's 9-7 but not always. our '02 team wa MUCH better than our '01 team despite the '01 team winning 1 more reg season game. Your '03 team was out of the playoff race by week 17 and you beat 2 bad teams the last 2 weeks w/ the pressure off, KC beat Cincy who was resting their starters to get their 10th win while in'02 the Jets crushed a 12-4 GB team that was playing for homefield. The 2002 Jets were MUCH better than the '03 Dolphins or '04 Chiefs.

The facts are that you have no idea what you are talking about.

blah, blah, blah,... You can come up w/ something better than that, right? the facts are I have destroyed your weak arguments. This game is about winning and QBs are judged on Ws and Ls not on meaningless fantasy #s ad despite playing ina MUCH weaker div and conf and starting for much longer daunte has less PO appearances than Chad and despite starting much longer than Chad reen has less PO appearances and 2 less PO wins.

 

[FinfanInBuffalo]

chad kept us afloat, kept us in games while the D was adjusting to the new scheme. W/o Chad last year we probably win about 6 games.

Total BS. Only a true homer could claim Chad played well last season.

Th team that finsihd 10-6 MIGHT be better than another year's 9-7 but not always. our '02 team wa MUCH better than our '01 team despite the '01 team winning 1 more reg season game. Your '03 team was out of the playoff race by week 17 and you beat 2 bad teams the last 2 weeks w/ the pressure off, KC beat Cincy who was resting their starters to get their 10th win while in'02 the Jets crushed a 12-4 GB team that was playing for homefield. The 2002 Jets were MUCH better than the '03 Dolphins or '04 Chiefs.

The Fins in 2002 were much better than the Jets in 2002. Due to injuries and horrible play by the backup QB, they finished with the same record as the Jets and out of the playoffs due to a tie breaker.

blah, blah, blah,... You can come up w/ something better than that, right? the facts are I have destroyed your weak arguments. This game is about winning and QBs are judged on Ws and Ls not on meaningless fantasy #s ad despite playing ina MUCH weaker div and conf and starting for much longer daunte has less PO appearances than Chad and despite starting much longer than Chad reen has less PO appearances and 2 less PO wins.

This is a team game. You want to evaluate a QB's performance solely based on the play of the whole team. I prefer to look a bit more in depth and point out when a QB's play is not reflected in the W/L record of the team.

If the quality of the QB were the sole determining factor of a team's record, the Fins would have been 16-0 for Marino's entire career.

I'm done with this argument. You're arguments have been effectively countered on numerous occasions by numerous posters. You're entitled to your opinion about Pennington, Culpepper, and any other QB. I will never share your opinion. Please don't bother with any more endless diatribes. I simply don't agree with the arguments you are trying to make. There is no proving right or wrong in this argument. We have different opinions. You have supporting stats, I have supporting stats. There is no QB test that can absolutely identify the better QB.

 

[nyjunc]

Total BS. Only a true homer could claim Chad played well last season.

only those of us that don't judge players strictly on fantasy #s. The man was coming off 2 shoulder surgeries, had a new system, 2 rookie OL, no running game and a poor D most of the year. The man played well.

The Fins in 2002 were much better than the Jets in 2002. Due to injuries and horrible play by the backup QB, they finished with the same record as the Jets and out of the playoffs due to a tie breaker.

So your injuris counted and ours did not? we were beaten up early in the ear which is why we started 1-4 but as we got healthier we started winning and clearly we were the best team in the division and better than you guys.

This is a team game. You want to evaluate a QB's performance solely based on the play of the whole team. I prefer to look a bit more in depth and point out when a QB's play is not reflected in the W/L record of the team.

I don't blame duante for not etting to a SB but only 2 PO apps in5 years in the weak NFC doesn't cut it especially when he played so poorly in the postseason and so poorly in other big games that could get them to the postseason AND most importantly Minnesota was BETTER when Daunte was out w/ injury.

If the quality of the QB were the sole determining factor of a team's record, the Fins would have been 16-0 for Marino's entire career.

marino was in the playoffs nearly every year, he elevated inferior players around him to a playoff level. he never had the offensive firepower that daunte had.

I'm done with this argument. You're arguments have been effectively countered on numerous occasions by numerous posters. You're entitled to your opinion about Pennington, Culpepper, and any other QB. I will never share your opinion. Please don't bother with any more endless diatribes. I simply don't agree with the arguments you are trying to make. There is no proving right or wrong in this argument. We have different opinions. You have supporting stats, I have supporting stats. There is no QB test that can absolutely identify the better QB.

you haven't counteed anything, all you have done is show me fantasy stats. i show you the more important stats and you ignore them, I show you ho daunte negatively affected his team and you ignored it, I show you how Minny nd Miami were better w/o daunte then w/ him and you ignore it.

 

[FinfanInBuffalo]

only those of us that don't judge players strictly on fantasy #s. The man was coming off 2 shoulder surgeries, had a new system, 2 rookie OL, no running game and a poor D most of the year. The man played well.




So your injuris counted and ours did not? we were beaten up early in the ear which is why we started 1-4 but as we got healthier we started winning and clearly we were the best team in the division and better than you guys.



I don't blame duante for not etting to a SB but only 2 PO apps in5 years in the weak NFC doesn't cut it especially when he played so poorly in the postseason and so poorly in other big games that could get them to the postseason AND most importantly Minnesota was BETTER when Daunte was out w/ injury.



marino was in the playoffs nearly every year, he elevated inferior players around him to a playoff level. he never had the offensive firepower that daunte had.




you haven't counteed anything, all you have done is show me fantasy stats. i show you the more important stats and you ignore them, I show you ho daunte negatively affected his team and you ignored it, I show you how Minny nd Miami were better w/o daunte then w/ him and you ignore it.

One final thought on the QB comparison.

Why do you stop at making the playoffs or winning a playoff game as the barometer of QB play? You have "arbitrarily" set the benchmark. Brady has become the standard for judging QBs because of his team's sucess. Why not go all the way? You want the QB's success tied to the team's success? Grow a pair and stand by your convictions. The team either wins the SB or not. If not, the QB is not good enough. That's the point isn't it? The goal isn't to just make it to the playoffs and then lose 37-16 is it? Pennington has had 7 years. That's enough to show he is not the guy. Time for the Jets to move on.

None of the three have been good enough. This is like arguing which of the ugly chicks is the least ugly. It doesn't matter, none of them are prom queens.

 

[GreenMachine]

One final thought on the QB comparison.

Why do you stop at making the playoffs or winning a playoff game as the barometer of QB play? You have "arbitrarily" set the benchmark. Brady has become the standard for judging QBs because of his team's sucess. Why not go all the way? You want the QB's success tied to the team's success? Grow a pair and stand by your convictions. The team either wins the SB or not. If not, the QB is not good enough. That's the point isn't it? The goal isn't to just make it to the playoffs and then lose 37-16 is it? Pennington has had 7 years. That's enough to show he is not the guy. Time for the Jets to move on.

None of the three have been good enough. This is like arguing which of the ugly chicks is the least ugly. It doesn't matter, none of them are prom queens.

I somewhat agree, however there have been a bunch of times a team has won the SB without an elite QB.

Big Ben
Trent Dilfer
Doug Williams
Brad johnson
Mark Rypien
Jeff Hostetler

 

[FinfanInBuffalo]

I somewhat agree, however there have been a bunch of times a team has won the SB without an elite QB.

Big Ben
Trent Dilfer
Doug Williams
Brad johnson
Mark Rypien
Jeff Hostetler

I only raised it to counter nyjunc's endless insistance that the team's W/L record is the sole barometer of a QB's play. He has repeatedly attempted to use playoff appearances and playoff wins as the measure. IMO, that is an artibrary cutoff solely based on the fact that the Jets have not won many playoff games with Pennington as the QB. If the Jets make it to the SB or win one, the measure would suddenly change. If Culpepper wins a SB, something or someone else will get the credit. This is just a way to end the argument with nyjunc. None of them are good enough.



I'm of the belief that football is a team game on two levels.

1. There are three (or more depending on how you split up special teams) completely separate units that are on the field at different times. Often the superlative efforts of one of those units is completely ruined by the shoddy play of another.

2. There are 11 individuals involved on each play of those separate units.

It is extremely difficult to rate the play of any single individual (even the QB) based on the W/L record of the whole team.

 

[nyjunc]

One final thought on the QB comparison.

Why do you stop at making the playoffs or winning a playoff game as the barometer of QB play? You have "arbitrarily" set the benchmark. Brady has become the standard for judging QBs because of his team's sucess. Why not go all the way? You want the QB's success tied to the team's success? Grow a pair and stand by your convictions. The team either wins the SB or not. If not, the QB is not good enough. That's the point isn't it? The goal isn't to just make it to the playoffs and then lose 37-16 is it? Pennington has had 7 years. That's enough to show he is not the guy. Time for the Jets to move on.

None of the three have been good enough. This is like arguing which of the ugly chicks is the least ugly. It doesn't matter, none of them are prom queens.

Not every team is a SB caliber team, I judge the QBs winning by the players around and the competition they face. Brady is the best QB in the game and the best of his generation, he took a franchise on the decline and guided them to a dynasty. I feel daunte had enough talent around him and playe in a wek enough div and conf that he should have led them to 9-10 wins every year he was healthy but he only did that twice and only had 2 PO appearances. Chad has had a good team around him and every year he's been healthy he's been in the playoffs despite playing in a division w/ a dynasty team and playing in the tougher conference. Green doesn't even have a playoff win.

The 37-16 playoff loss was a TD game w/ 5 mins left, this wasn't like a Miami late 90s special where the game was over by the end of the 1st qtr. We made some mistakes late that made the score lopsided.

I only raised it to counter nyjunc's endless insistance that the team's W/L record is the sole barometer of a QB's play.

Winning is a big part, #s are a part as well but if you put up #s and can't win then what is thepoint?

He has repeatedly attempted to use playoff appearances and playoff wins as the measure. IMO, that is an artibrary cutoff solely based on the fact that the Jets have not won many playoff games with Pennington as the QB. If the Jets make it to the SB or win one, the measure would suddenly change. If Culpepper wins a SB, something or someone else will get the credit. This is just a way to end the argument with nyjunc. None of them are good enough.

Chad has 2 playoff wisn inclduing a road playoff win. That ties him w/ Namatah and Richard odd for most playoff wins by a Jets QB and he's basically done it in 3 years as a starter. If he was healthy he'd have more than 2.

I'm of the belief that football is a team game on two levels.

1. There are three (or more depending on how you split up special teams) completely separate units that are on the field at different times. Often the superlative efforts of one of those units is completely ruined by the shoddy play of another.

2. There are 11 individuals involved on each play of those separate units.

It is extremely difficult to rate the play of any single individual (even the QB) based on the W/L record of the whole team.

The ultimate judge of a QB is wins. marino wouldn't be remember so fondly if you guys weren't in the playoffs almost every year. #s are nice but it's about the team and as long as there is enough talent around a player(like their has been w/ Green and Culpepper) thenthey should be winnng more.

 

[FinfanInBuffalo]

Not every team is a SB caliber team,

Just as not every team is a playoff caliber team.

I feel daunte had enough talent around him

And I don't.

The 37-16 playoff loss was a TD game w/ 5 mins left, this wasn't like a Miami late 90s special where the game was over by the end of the 1st qtr. We made some mistakes late that made the score lopsided.

Either way, Chad could only lead them to 16 points. That's not good. Even Joey Harrington put up 21 on the Pats.

Winning is a big part, #s are a part as well but if you put up #s and can't win then what is thepoint?

And if you don't win the SB, what's the point?

Chad has 2 playoff wisn inclduing a road playoff win. That ties him w/ Namatah and Richard odd for most playoff wins by a Jets QB and he's basically done it in 3 years as a starter. If he was healthy he'd have more than 2..

Staying healthy is part of the deal.

The ultimate judge of a QB is wins.

Or maybe it's superbowl victories..... That was certainly the case with Peyton Manning.

marino wouldn't be remember so fondly if you guys weren't in the playoffs almost every year.

They number one knock on Marino by non-fin fans is that he has no ring.

#s are nice but it's about the team and as long as there is enough talent around a player(like their has been w/ Green and Culpepper) thenthey should be winnng more.

In your opinion.

 

[nyjunc]

Just as not every team is a playoff caliber team.

all but 2001 or 2002 were playoff caliber teams for daunte yet he only had 2 playoff seasons. and KC has been a playoff caliber team since Green has been there w/ just 2 apps and zero wins.

Either way, Chad could only lead them to 16 points. That's not good. Even Joey Harrington put up 21 on the Pats.

Chad wasn't great that day, the big mistake was the backward pass/fumble- that changed the game as he was playing ok up to that point but he didn't post a 13 rating like daunte did against the Giants in 2000 and his performance against NE looked Marino like compared to trent Green against Indy.

And if you don't win the SB, what's the point?

Only 1 team wins the SB. 12 get to the playoffs.

Staying healthy is part of the deal.

Even injured and having played much less he has had more suscess.

Or maybe it's superbowl victories..... That was certainly the case with Peyton Manning.

SBs help, manning has had a SB caliber team for a long time- he's finally starting to catch up to Brady.

They number one knock on Marino by non-fin fans is that he has no ring.

He never had a great team around him(well in '84 h did but they ran into maybe the best team of all time). The talent daunte has had to throw and hand off to is MUCH better than anything marino ever had.

 

[DuderinoN703]

it's very entertaining though just like the reruns of the 3 stooges. I think Curly is better than Shemp though.

Screw that, I'd watch 3 Stooges over any of these lame repetitive conversations any day of the week.

Curly and Shemp both rule. As do Larry and Moe.

Joe stinks :wink:

 

[FinfanInBuffalo]

The 37-16 playoff loss was a TD game w/ 5 mins left, this wasn't like a Miami late 90s special where the game was over by the end of the 1st qtr. We made some mistakes late that made the score lopsided.

"We" made some mistakes. Is that what Chad is going by these days?

Let's see a fumble by "We" led to a FG, and an INT by "We" went for a TD.

It was a 2 TD game with 5:16 left on the clock. It became a 3 TD game when "We" threw the pick 6 and stayed a 3 TD game when "We" couldn't move the ball against a prevent defense.

Looks like "We" choked in the important game.

 

[nyjunc]

"We" made some mistakes. Is that what Chad is going by these days?

Let's see a fumble by "We" led to a FG, and an INT by "We" went for a TD.

It was a 2 TD game with 5:16 left on the clock. It became a 3 TD game when "We" threw the pick 6 and stayed a 3 TD game when "We" couldn't move the ball against a prevent defense.

Looks like "We" choked in the important game.

It wasn't a duante fumble, it was a fluke play. It was a screen pass where the jets thought it was incomplete but it was slightly backwards so it was ruled a fumble. his INT came when the game was over. Good to see you watched the game.

 

[FinfanInBuffalo]

all but 2001 or 2002 were playoff caliber teams for daunte yet he only had 2 playoff seasons. and KC has been a playoff caliber team since Green has been there w/ just 2 apps and zero wins.

In your opinion.

Chad wasn't great that day, the big mistake was the backward pass/fumble- that changed the game as he was playing ok up to that point but he didn't post a 13 rating like daunte did against the Giants in 2000 and his performance against NE looked Marino like compared to trent Green against Indy.

Wasn't great?

Only 1 team wins the SB. 12 get to the playoffs.

Exactly. At the end of the season there is 1 SB team and a 31 team tie for last place.

Even injured and having played much less he has had more suscess.

He has had 7 seasons that ended in failure.

He never had a great team around him(well in '84 h did but they ran into maybe the best team of all time). The talent daunte has had to throw and hand off to is MUCH better than anything marino ever had.

And offense was never the issue in Minn, but you already know that.

 

[FinfanInBuffalo]

It wasn't a duante fumble, it was a fluke play. It was a screen pass where the jets thought it was incomplete but it was slightly backwards so it was ruled a fumble.

So rather than a play where a hit knocks the ball out, "We" threw a pass backwards. Somehow that's better? Sounds like "We" screwed up.

his INT came when the game was over. Good to see you watched the game.

Over? A quick score makes it a 1 TD game. Onside kick and the Jets have a chance. "WE" CHOKED. :sidelol:

 

[nyjunc]

Wasn't great?

he had a decent game, it came down to that fluky backwards pass.

Exactly. At the end of the season there is 1 SB team and a 31 team tie for last place.

So then you think the Jets and dolphins are basically the same type of franchises? The dolphins have 1 more SB but that was 34 years ago so we are basically equal since 1974 b/c neither of us has won a SB? If that's how you feel...

He has had 7 seasons that ended in failure.

In 3 full years as a starter he has 3 PO appearances, daunte has 5 full seasons w/ 2 PO appearances in a weaker div and conf, Green in 6+ full years as starter has 2 PO appearances(and won Damon Huard did the bulk of the work). Green couldn't even win w/ the Rams in 2000. SL was 7-1 when kurt warner got hurt in 2000 hen Green was 2-3 as a starter and forced them into the WC game.

And offense was never the issue in Minn, but you already know that.

You THINK offense wasn't the issue but Daunte could never lead his O to points in big games and he turned it over too much and in bad spots which killed his Ds. if daunte was TRULY a great QB he would have had at least 4 div titles in that div and averaged 11-12 wins a year. minny had enough talent to do that but the choking QB held them back.

So rather than a play where a hit knocks the ball out, "We" threw a pass backwards. Somehow that's better? Sounds like "We" screwed up.

it was a fluky play, it was a screen pass that was slightly backwards.

Over? A quick score makes it a 1 TD game. Onside kick and the Jets have a chance. "WE" CHOKED.

it's obvious you didn't watch the game. There was less than 5 mins left in that game and we were down 2 TDs and at our own 23 yard line. t would have required a big mracle to come back to tie that game. It was over after it became a 14 point game w/ about 5 to play.