After further review... | Page 4 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

After further review...

Stoobz

Eschew the Onvious
Club Member
Joined
May 9, 2005
Messages
3,150
Reaction score
5,345
Location
A Cardboard Box
I'm firmly on the Grier Must Go bandwagon (and take Shon-pier). While he has a few nice gets, his failures far outweigh them.

Where do I send a check for the flying stadium banner?
 

BahamaFinFan78

Starter
Joined
Jul 18, 2010
Messages
4,523
Reaction score
2,309
I'm firmly on the Grier Must Go bandwagon (and take Shon-pier). While he has a few nice gets, his failures far outweigh them.

Where do I send a check for the flying stadium banner?
The whole thing needs cleaning out. We haven't done that since Wanstedt.
 
Joined
Sep 2, 2019
Messages
67
Reaction score
108
Age
48
Location
Scotland
If my memory is correct Ross asked for advice from the former Chiefs G.M.
Then Tannenbaumb comes in after being a failure with the Jets leaving them in a salary cap mess.
Does exactly the same with Miami.
Grier has risen through the ranks and now had a shot in the last 2 drafts and free agency and missed.
Flores doesn't keep offensive coaches and we look terrible week in week out.
Around the league young players are making plays ours are either sitting out or ineffective.
Ross needs to stop being the nice guy and realise no Pats succeed without Belicheat.
Flores and his my way or the highway doesn't cut it without a Q.B like Brady.
Today we will see if the players believe in Flores.
 

SF Dolphin Fan

Seasoned Veteran
Club Member
Joined
May 27, 2005
Messages
15,922
Reaction score
11,900
Me. I would never draft a running back in the first round. I'm sorry, the position just doesn't carry that type of value anymore. It's easy to sit here and say Taylor is a better player than Igbinoghene in hindsight, but conerback is a much higher value position and Howard was coming off an injury and wasn't playing at the level he is now so corner was a need regardless of what most of the idiots on this site think. It's the one thing I believe this front office has gotten right. They haven't overvalued the running back position. They were way too early in the total rebuild process to ever consider a running back in the first round. It would be like putting a silk hat on a pig. I do agree though, that the second round of that year's draft would have been the sweet spot to have drafted a running back. Jonathan Taylor, Cam Akers, and JK Dobbins all went after Miami took Robert Hunt, but even pointing this out kind of makes my point. Akers and Dobbins both went down for the whole season before week one even started.
From a positional value perspective, going quarterback, left tackle and corner made a lot of sense. I think that was part of the OP's point. But Grier left better players on the board IMO.

While I'm not ready to give up on any of Miami's three first rounders, unfortunately Iggy hasn't even seen the field year two. Taylor is one of the best running backs in the NFL. Top 10 for sure. I'd rather have someone who is contributing in a big way than a potential bust. But, yes in general I wouldn't take a running back in the first round. Then again, the Dolphins did have three first rounders and it was a really good year for running backs. Interestingly, that's one of the big positional complaints by fans right now.
 

Digital

Starter
Club Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2008
Messages
11,262
Reaction score
13,544
Good post…I would argue that Grier certainly drafted support for Tua, but the decisions were far from great!

I also think some veteran O-line help mixed with the youth would have been better than what Grier chose to do!

I think Flores has already damaged his own reputation regarding attracting assistants!
I agree with this.

Grier tried to mix veterans with youth, he just screwed it up. He correctly added Ted Karras who outperformed his contract, and the U product who played LG fairly well--but did not live up to his contract. We failed to lock Karras down to a multi-year contract, and failed to re-sign him. When our LG didn't live up to his lofty 1 year wonder numbers, we cut him to save the money .... two fairly productive veterans ... that we financially mismanaged. That's on Grier, for sure, but it's not like he didn't _try_ to mix veterans around the youth. IMHO, he wanted to add a veteran C this past offseason, but undervalued the position and was outbid for everyone he was targeting, including the former Green Bay C who is performing so well this year for the Chargers.
 

Digital

Starter
Club Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2008
Messages
11,262
Reaction score
13,544
What good is it so spend all those picks on the line if the players aren’t good? Did Grier try to help Tua? Sure. But he didn’t ultimately help him by putting a strong line in front of him? Absolutely not
Yep, very true. Not saying Grier picked great players. In fact, I had my reservations about many of them, including Robert Hunt, Iggy, and a few others. I'm just saying that Grier spent his resources in an attempt to build around Tua ... he put FA money into the OL, and he put lots of draft picks into the OL. He got rid of the backup who was better than Tua. Coach Flo fully handed the reins over to Tua and brought in his QB whisperer, then promoted his own guys to tailor an offense around him. Grier drafted Tua's favorite target with our top draft pick. Grier and Flo gave Tua everything they could to help him succeed .... which is what a FO is supposed to do for a young QB.

Whether they're good at picking talent or developing it ..... that's just a different question.
 

Manning

Scout Team
Joined
Feb 7, 2008
Messages
1,313
Reaction score
1,573
Yep, very true. Not saying Grier picked great players. In fact, I had my reservations about many of them, including Robert Hunt, Iggy, and a few others. I'm just saying that Grier spent his resources in an attempt to build around Tua ... he put FA money into the OL, and he put lots of draft picks into the OL. He got rid of the backup who was better than Tua. Coach Flo fully handed the reins over to Tua and brought in his QB whisperer, then promoted his own guys to tailor an offense around him. Grier drafted Tua's favorite target with our top draft pick. Grier and Flo gave Tua everything they could to help him succeed .... which is what a FO is supposed to do for a young QB.

Whether they're good at picking talent or developing it ..... that's just a different question.
I agree that they tried but failed. Also They did not put free agency money into the line. They spent on one free agency G in the last two years. That’s it
 

FinFaninSeattle

Scout Team
Joined
Jul 30, 2019
Messages
225
Reaction score
269
Age
47
Location
Bothell
Im rambling the **** out of this post so if you dont have a couple of minutes to read it once, and then another couple of times just to get what it actually means, just move on.

Let me start off by saying there's not one single move this FO made in the last 2 years that was a **** move(questionable at worst) when looked at individually.. These moves when looked at individually were all legit, its when you look at the overall strategy that things start to look... Inadequate for a lack of a better word. I'll just keep this one on the offense because quite frankly, this D has warts but its good enough to win games in the NFL provided you field a top 10 offense, which is what you should always be striving for.

Picking Jackson at #18 is not a problem, picking Eich at #42 is not a problem, picking hunt at #39 is not a problem, picking Kindley at #111 is definitely not a problem. Picking Tua over Herbert at #5 was definitely not a problem. I mean sure hindsight captains will tell you all along Herbert was definitely the guy, but thats a very small amount of people and even then half of them hated Tua more than they liked Herbert.

So whats the problem? If all these moves were correct, how the **** does this offense suck so bad?

We often come across guys who's whole argument centers around "These guys are pros and you're sitting on your couch, I'll trust the pros to do their jobs". This is basically correct, you're not getting resistance from me on that one. Grier is absolutely better at evaluation footaball players than we are, Flores is obviously a better football coach than anyone here(hopefully) and basically everyone on the Fins coaching staff most probably know WTF they're doing.

That being said, having a bunch of competent people doesnt automatically bring success. You absolutely need someone to coordinate all these guys, formulate an overall strategy that makes sense and make sure everyone knows their role and execute it at a high level. This is where the Fins literally suck on offense. There is absolutely nothing that makes sense on the way this offense is built and run. They are actually doing worst than a coinflip.

There's nothing to evaluate on offense right now because the OL is incapable of giving even below average time for plays to develop.

Quick view of the OL: 2nd year, 2nd year, 3rd year(IR), 2nd year, Davis(who got the QB smashed in 1.9 seconds, and who's backup is, you guessed it, a rookie)
Quick view of the OL coach: 1st year(was playing in the NFL just 5 years ago)
Quick view of the QB: 2nd year(IR)

No one, not one player was put in position to succeed. Every single one of these players were put in a group that was just as clueless as they are. I'd bet a huge amount that any single one of these players would've performed a decent amount better if they were put next to a vet, or at the very least coached by someone who knows what the **** they're doing. I bet Jackson would've been alot better if he came into a situation where there were 3-4 vets on the OL, and I bet that statement is true for anyone of the green OL.

I also bet Tua would've looked alot better if he didnt play behind a group of OL that are all lost and the only one to look up to is someone who is also lost. Picks and money is great, but if all your picks go into the same unit or function, its a problem. All these coaches and management guys are probably good at what they do, but someone needs to oversee the overall strategy because right now, everyone seems to do as they please and the final product is alot of **** that dont make sense.

/rant
Stop, nearly every move you claim was not a problem, literally was. Grier is a buffoon who can’t draft. His input is THE reason this organization has sucked for 15 years
 

J. David Wannyheimer

Writing in pencil on laminated cards since 2011
Club Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2011
Messages
29,407
Reaction score
13,126
It wasn’t just the hip situation, it was the series of injuries his final two years at Alabama as well that raised red flags for many!

I don’t have a head count of where other GM’s stood and won’t pretend to know, but…..there was much debate at the time amongst NFL people now in the media about the merits of both. Including many who favored Herbert over the smallish, less athletic Tua….with injury prone concerns. We also now have the tidbit of info that within the organization Marino had favored Herbert and that Grier overrode that advice.

So I can’t give Grier a pass on the situation when evaluating my opinion of his performance.

I know personally, it was all of the above plus watching Tua fall short in big games against Clemson and LSU those final two years, strange turnovers by him at big moments in those games that made my mind up!

I personally put less stock in the freshman year coming off the bench win over Georgia than the above.

I don’t personally think most considered The Chargers a better landing spot than Miami prior to the 2020 draft.

I would argue the failure of Grier and Flores and Tua’s continued injury prone streak, coupled with the excellent play of Herbert, have created that perception.

I like Tua, but this is fair. Unfortunately, he's spending a lot of time on the injury report and I think that even if he turns into the QB I think he can be, we're going to need to invest in a capable backup.
 

isaacjunk

FinHeaven VIP
Club Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2006
Messages
338
Reaction score
266
Age
45
Im rambling the **** out of this post so if you dont have a couple of minutes to read it once, and then another couple of times just to get what it actually means, just move on.
/rant
I agree that if we had just addressed the offensive line correctly we'd be in way better shape..still in contention for the playoffs with Tua still likely the QB. And I agree Grier underestimated the value of veterans on the OL in particular. I know we spent some high picks on the OL but really, to get 2 starting tackles, they actually reached for their picks. AJ was the 5th tackle taken that year and universally thought of as a reach. Liam Eichenberg fell to the 2nd. And Robert Hunt went in the 2nd, when plug-and-play OT starters are usually first-round picks and only 2-3 exist per class. Looking back they should have been willing to overpay a bit in FA to get at least 1 anchor at one of the tackle spots -- that would have been worth more to us than byron jones. Then, be willing to pay what it's worth to actually get a top tackle in the draft.

In any case we are not in Tampa's class (our defensive showing proves this) but we could easily be 3-2 with those changes alone.
 

isaacjunk

FinHeaven VIP
Club Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2006
Messages
338
Reaction score
266
Age
45
Now if you ask, what would it take to build a true SB contender in the next 2-3 years? (Not a playoff contender)
- Tua becomes Brees
- JP becomes Cam Wake
- we adjust on defense better to handle what has been exposed there since last year
- we find a top offensive coordinator who actually agrees to work under Flores
- we invest in a top RB (remember they actually made an offer to Aaron Jones)

At this point we've seen some of the cards fall. Of the high-resource/high hope gambles we've taken I'd say
- Noah is probably a bust -- sure he could turn it around but if it takes till year 4 of this rookie contract to play like a first round pick its a wasted pick
- AJ is a bust - at best a decent guard for a top 16 pick, a big overpay

But all is not lost, a lot of potential still in what's in our hands:
- Tua - jury is out but i'm still very hopeful
- JP - arrow up
- Liam - solid LT - pleasant surprise
- Robert Hunt - solid pick
- dieter
- Waddle - looking pretty good so far
- Flores is still a good player's coach
- our secondary is still elite, just need a pass rush

For the rest of this season, playoffs doesn't matter to me anymore, I will call the project back on track if
- Tua emerges as a franchise QB
- we settle most of the positions on the OL - if Dieter, Hunt, Liam, Jackson work going fwd that's a big relief
- JP breaks out
And in the offseason they manage to get a top OC to come here, and invest in a top RB. Also need to make some adjustments on the pass defense but not sure exactly what personnel / scheme wise is most to blame.
 

Digital

Starter
Club Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2008
Messages
11,262
Reaction score
13,544
I agree that they tried but failed. Also They did not put free agency money into the line. They spent on one free agency G in the last two years. That’s it
Completely agree, they tried and failed. But they brought in Ted Karras as a FA and that was a good move. Unfortunately, they did the Dolphin thing and made it a one year prove-it contract instead of a very cheap multi-year deal or a deal with an option that was available for peanuts to the Dolphins. Then Karras proved to be a pretty decent C and organized the line well .... and suddenly he commanded a LOT more money and we couldn't/didn't re-sign him. Money put into the OL, but poor contract strategy.

They also put starter money into Ereck Flowers ... a guy who was essentially a failure at LT and RT but had one year of a good OG play so we over-paid to get him. But he was decent .... essentially average on an OL with a very young, physically recovering, rookie LT. Flowers did OK .... but again, the contract strategy was all wrong, and so we had to cut him because we expected him to be the equal of his one best-ever year .... and he regressed to his mean. Still, two solid OL ..... moved on from and creating two holes out of our 5 OL.

Then we underestimated how much a quality OL costs .... looking for a replacement C and we struck out on all of them, most notably the Packers' C who we apparently wanted and who is playing lights out now .... because again, we didn't have a good feel for the market, and we're BAD at building OL .... and we don't add people who are good at it.

Combine this with the tragic bad management decision by Coach Flo who _clearly_ had found an OL coach who got the most out of his players ..... and Coach Flo fired him ...... that was a dumb move. Now he can't get a quality coach to even take the job .... and the current OL coach is bad. This is a slippery slope .... and it's going to be bad. Coach Flo now needs to make it work with the coaches and players he has ..... he has gotten a LOT of resources to rebuild this team .... now we're keeping score. Fix it or find a new job. Ditto for Grier .... although he has a little more wiggle room. Most likely, when one goes ... both will go and we nuke it and start again.
 

nick1

I am Groot
Club Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2004
Messages
27,521
Reaction score
8,131
Location
FL
FiHfBt3.gif
A million dollars says if Herbert was in Miami he would be viewed as an even bigger failure then Tua is by the media
 
Top Bottom