Article absolutely KILLING Chambers

[Disnardo]

Chris Chambers Draft Anlysis in 2001...Nothing has Changed Much in 10 Years...

Yes 10 years, and nothing has changed much...it seems that Chris as others stated before, has had the same issues in his 3 out of his 4 years in College and add about 6 years of NFL career to it....

Let’s take a look at Chris Chambers NFL debut from College, here is one writer’s perspective from Football Futures, a Draft Analysis group… here is a few snippets… I am grateful to Boomer to lead me to look for this information...

ANALYSIS:

Positives... Natural athlete with a very impressive height/weight/speed factor... Has a well-developed frame that packs a lot of power...Displays exceptional upfield quickness and the acceleration to easily elude defenders after the catch...Has the body control to make sharp cuts coming out of his routes...Shows great timing to the stick posts and on corner routes...Uses his quickness and power to gain most of his yardage after the catch...Shows good timing going up for the ball in flight and a competitive nature to wrest the ball away from defenders in traffic...

Negatives... While he has blazing speed, he sometimes looks hesitant in his initial step off the line...Little stiff running his routes and inconsistent protecting the ball on the run...Not always aware of the playing field and tends to have balance problems working the sidelines...While his hands are better than former Badger Tony Simmons (New England), much like Simmons, he can drop the easy passes due to a lack of concentration and only adequate hands (has made improvements in this area over the last year), especially when he gets into a rhythm where he body-catches, rather than extend for the ball...Flashes some flexibility adjusting to the ball, but he's not as aware of his surroundings on the field as one would like.

GAZING INTO THE CRYSTAL BALL... I don't know what it is with Wisconsin receivers. They are all tall, athletic and great blockers, but just seem to be lacking that one major ingredient to be the total package - natural hands. Chambers is much like the Pats' Tony Simmons, in where he will have a great play and then slowly disappear from the game. His athletic ability is what will get him drafted earlier than his productivity and it would not surprise me if he gets a first round nod.

Interesting that his productivity in College was also an issue, except for his last year...

Link: Link: http://www.footballsfuture.com/2001/profile/chris_chambers.html
…………………………………………………………………………………
From an USA Today Draft Article…a few snippets…

STRENGTHS: Acrobatic receiver with great body control and field awareness… improved every season and became a sure-handed receiver over time… impressive leaper and overall athlete… very agile with great footwork… deceptively strong upper body… can take a hit and keep going.

WEAKNESSES: Has history of dropping balls and letting easy catches slip out of his fingers… never really had breakout performances until his senior season… weak blocker despite size and strength.

Link: http://www.usatoday.com/sports/nfl/2001draft/bios/chrischambers..

Just figured you all would like these bits of info...:wink:

 

[Fin Fan in Cali]

Thanks Bro!:wink:

 

[jdang307]

My question to you is this...Isn't Welker and Booker part of the same Offensive team as Chris???? :confused::confused: :confused:

If the answer is yes, then why have they performed better with the same "team Offense?"...the formula does not seem to show a flaw in this case...

If the answer is no...then I rest my case...:wink:

What? Since you brought up legalese, Nice compound question, I'd have to raise an objection that would be sustained! The formula rates the player's performance relative to the team's offense. Why have they performed better with the same "team offense?" Because they have performed better, period. It's that simple. Their numbers are better this year then last. This ranking, which is not a pure rating of the WR by himself, goes up. Chambers numbers are worse. His rating is worse. I'm not sure how that is hard to comprehend. SO you are asking for an explanation of why, I can give it to you. Joey sucks at the long ball. What we've been saying all along.

Pretty simple if you ask me.

 

[GoonBoss]

Yes 10 years, and nothing has changed much...it seems that Chris as others stated before, has had the same issues in his 3 out of his 4 years in College and add about 6 years of NFL career to it....

Let’s take a look at Chris Chambers NFL debut from College, here is one writer’s perspective from Football Futures, a Draft Analysis group… here is a few snippets… I am grateful to Boomer to lead me to look for this information...

ANALYSIS:

Positives... Natural athlete with a very impressive height/weight/speed factor... Has a well-developed frame that packs a lot of power...Displays exceptional upfield quickness and the acceleration to easily elude defenders after the catch...Has the body control to make sharp cuts coming out of his routes...Shows great timing to the stick posts and on corner routes...Uses his quickness and power to gain most of his yardage after the catch...Shows good timing going up for the ball in flight and a competitive nature to wrest the ball away from defenders in traffic...

Negatives... While he has blazing speed, he sometimes looks hesitant in his initial step off the line...Little stiff running his routes and inconsistent protecting the ball on the run...Not always aware of the playing field and tends to have balance problems working the sidelines...While his hands are better than former Badger Tony Simmons (New England), much like Simmons, he can drop the easy passes due to a lack of concentration and only adequate hands (has made improvements in this area over the last year), especially when he gets into a rhythm where he body-catches, rather than extend for the ball...Flashes some flexibility adjusting to the ball, but he's not as aware of his surroundings on the field as one would like.

GAZING INTO THE CRYSTAL BALL... I don't know what it is with Wisconsin receivers. They are all tall, athletic and great blockers, but just seem to be lacking that one major ingredient to be the total package - natural hands. Chambers is much like the Pats' Tony Simmons, in where he will have a great play and then slowly disappear from the game. His athletic ability is what will get him drafted earlier than his productivity and it would not surprise me if he gets a first round nod.

Interesting that his productivity in College was also an issue, except for his last year...

Link: Link: http://www.footballsfuture.com/2001/profile/chris_chambers.html
…………………………………………………………………………………
From an USA Today Draft Article…a few snippets…

STRENGTHS: Acrobatic receiver with great body control and field awareness… improved every season and became a sure-handed receiver over time… impressive leaper and overall athlete… very agile with great footwork… deceptively strong upper body… can take a hit and keep going.

WEAKNESSES: Has history of dropping balls and letting easy catches slip out of his fingers… never really had breakout performances until his senior season… weak blocker despite size and strength.

Link: http://www.usatoday.com/sports/nfl/2001draft/bios/chrischambers..

Just figured you all would like these bits of info...:wink:

Like my boy, a total WI homer said......

"Dude...He's GREAT!......He's just got to hang onto the easy ones. He'll snag every hard one.....The easy ones are his thing that he can't catch. It's like his focus drifts whn he knows he's open.

 

[RenoFinFan]

What? Since you brought up legalese, Nice compound question, I'd have to raise an objection that would be sustained! The formula rates the player's performance relative to the team's offense. Why have they performed better with the same "team offense?" Because they have performed better, period. It's that simple. Their numbers are better this year then last. This ranking, which is not a pure rating of the WR by himself, goes up. Chambers numbers are worse. His rating is worse. I'm not sure how that is hard to comprehend. SO you are asking for an explanation of why, I can give it to you. Joey sucks at the long ball. What we've been saying all along.

Pretty simple if you ask me.

Not that you need any help defending your posts Disnardo (excellent work on this thread), but if you go back and look at post #134 on this thread you will see that Chambers has equally sucked whether Daunte is throwing him the ball or Joey.

 

[FINintheMOON]

Yes 10 years, and nothing has changed much...it seems that Chris as others stated before, has had the same issues in his 3 out of his 4 years in College and add about 6 years of NFL career to it....

Let’s take a look at Chris Chambers NFL debut from College, here is one writer’s perspective from Football Futures, a Draft Analysis group… here is a few snippets… I am grateful to Boomer to lead me to look for this information...

ANALYSIS:

Positives... Natural athlete with a very impressive height/weight/speed factor... Has a well-developed frame that packs a lot of power...Displays exceptional upfield quickness and the acceleration to easily elude defenders after the catch...Has the body control to make sharp cuts coming out of his routes...Shows great timing to the stick posts and on corner routes...Uses his quickness and power to gain most of his yardage after the catch...Shows good timing going up for the ball in flight and a competitive nature to wrest the ball away from defenders in traffic...

Negatives... While he has blazing speed, he sometimes looks hesitant in his initial step off the line...Little stiff running his routes and inconsistent protecting the ball on the run...Not always aware of the playing field and tends to have balance problems working the sidelines...While his hands are better than former Badger Tony Simmons (New England), much like Simmons, he can drop the easy passes due to a lack of concentration and only adequate hands (has made improvements in this area over the last year), especially when he gets into a rhythm where he body-catches, rather than extend for the ball...Flashes some flexibility adjusting to the ball, but he's not as aware of his surroundings on the field as one would like.

GAZING INTO THE CRYSTAL BALL... I don't know what it is with Wisconsin receivers. They are all tall, athletic and great blockers, but just seem to be lacking that one major ingredient to be the total package - natural hands. Chambers is much like the Pats' Tony Simmons, in where he will have a great play and then slowly disappear from the game. His athletic ability is what will get him drafted earlier than his productivity and it would not surprise me if he gets a first round nod.

Interesting that his productivity in College was also an issue, except for his last year...

Link: Link: http://www.footballsfuture.com/2001/profile/chris_chambers.html
…………………………………………………………………………………
From an USA Today Draft Article…a few snippets…

STRENGTHS: Acrobatic receiver with great body control and field awareness… improved every season and became a sure-handed receiver over time… impressive leaper and overall athlete… very agile with great footwork… deceptively strong upper body… can take a hit and keep going.

WEAKNESSES: Has history of dropping balls and letting easy catches slip out of his fingers… never really had breakout performances until his senior season… weak blocker despite size and strength.

Link: http://www.usatoday.com/sports/nfl/2001draft/bios/chrischambers..

Just figured you all would like these bits of info...:wink:

I disagree with this... Granted he has dropped some balls over the years. Granted he has had struggles as well. But I will defend him until he proves me wrong...

He has played for 5 different Offensive Coordinators over the past 6 years. He has had 5 different QBs that has thrown passes to him as well. OF the 5 different QBs, only 2 seem to figure out his playmaking ability thus far and neither are on the team...

I don't care what most of you say but IMHO, a reciever is only as good as the QB and vise-versa when it comes to stats and big plays. Do you think that MArvin Harrison would be as successful as he is now receiving passes from GROSSMAN or LOSMAN? Would he be as successful with BRADY or RIVERS or GREEN?

Bottom line is that if the QB can't put the ball up where he can get it, he will SUCK as a receiver!

 

[finmann]

Yes 10 years, and nothing has changed much...it seems that Chris as others stated before, has had the same issues in his 3 out of his 4 years in College and add about 6 years of NFL career to it....

Let’s take a look at Chris Chambers NFL debut from College, here is one writer’s perspective from Football Futures, a Draft Analysis group… here is a few snippets… I am grateful to Boomer to lead me to look for this information...

ANALYSIS:

Positives... Natural athlete with a very impressive height/weight/speed factor... Has a well-developed frame that packs a lot of power...Displays exceptional upfield quickness and the acceleration to easily elude defenders after the catch...Has the body control to make sharp cuts coming out of his routes...Shows great timing to the stick posts and on corner routes...Uses his quickness and power to gain most of his yardage after the catch...Shows good timing going up for the ball in flight and a competitive nature to wrest the ball away from defenders in traffic...

Negatives... While he has blazing speed, he sometimes looks hesitant in his initial step off the line...Little stiff running his routes and inconsistent protecting the ball on the run...Not always aware of the playing field and tends to have balance problems working the sidelines...While his hands are better than former Badger Tony Simmons (New England), much like Simmons, he can drop the easy passes due to a lack of concentration and only adequate hands (has made improvements in this area over the last year), especially when he gets into a rhythm where he body-catches, rather than extend for the ball...Flashes some flexibility adjusting to the ball, but he's not as aware of his surroundings on the field as one would like.

GAZING INTO THE CRYSTAL BALL... I don't know what it is with Wisconsin receivers. They are all tall, athletic and great blockers, but just seem to be lacking that one major ingredient to be the total package - natural hands. Chambers is much like the Pats' Tony Simmons, in where he will have a great play and then slowly disappear from the game. His athletic ability is what will get him drafted earlier than his productivity and it would not surprise me if he gets a first round nod.

Interesting that his productivity in College was also an issue, except for his last year...

Link: Link: http://www.footballsfuture.com/2001/profile/chris_chambers.html
…………………………………………………………………………………
From an USA Today Draft Article…a few snippets…

STRENGTHS: Acrobatic receiver with great body control and field awareness… improved every season and became a sure-handed receiver over time… impressive leaper and overall athlete… very agile with great footwork… deceptively strong upper body… can take a hit and keep going.

WEAKNESSES: Has history of dropping balls and letting easy catches slip out of his fingers… never really had breakout performances until his senior season… weak blocker despite size and strength.

Link: http://www.usatoday.com/sports/nfl/2001draft/bios/chrischambers..

Just figured you all would like these bits of info...:wink:

Wow.......Many people have been saying this for a couple years now.

 

[GoonBoss]

I disagree with this... Granted he has dropped some balls over the years. Granted he has had struggles as well. But I will defend him until he proves me wrong...

He has played for 5 different Offensive Coordinators over the past 6 years. He has had 5 different QBs that has thrown passes to him as well. OF the 5 different QBs, only 2 seem to figure out his playmaking ability thus far and neither are on the team...

I don't care what most of you say but IMHO, a reciever is only as good as the QB and vise-versa when it comes to stats and big plays. Do you think that MArvin Harrison would be as successful as he is now receiving passes from GROSSMAN or LOSMAN? Would he be as successful with BRADY or RIVERS or GREEN?

Bottom line is that if the QB can't put the ball up where he can get it, he will SUCK as a receiver!

Balls come in, spiraling.....Catch the ball the same way you have your whole life........

OC's have JACK to do with catching balls....now, PRODUCTION? That's different. CC Suffers from horrible QBs.I accept that, and that's why stats make my eyes bleed.

Stat nerds make me mad....

I love CC, but,, hes not a go-to guy, and, he will never be that. If he asks that money, dont pay it, unless by hometown discount we are getting under market value for the money.

Lord. CCwill show his worth when we get a QB that isn'tworried about his rateing and, just goes and plays the game.

 

[bluehaze]

I'd take B, but a lot of things go into the difference beyond Chambers sucks. And like they even say it is more a measure of the total offense than that one player. He produces, and people say he sucks because he doesnt produce efficiently enough? Even with your helpful breakdown (no sarcasm) it still doesnt account for 61 players being better than him. All things equal, two guys with the same stats take the more efficient one, but 61 WR werent close to Chambers stats last year.

Well some of you are mistaking the system as if it is flawed because it cannot seperate QB play from Reciever play but there is no system that can ever do that it's simply not possible to do in every situation. However Disnardo has provided comparison with Culpepper who is known for his accuracy on the deep ball and there is virtually no change in Chambers production nor has there ever been a noticeable change in Chambers production for an entire season throughout 6 different QB's, all the while the other recievers on the team catching passes from the same QB's numbers do tend to fluctuate so I think it's fair to say the QB is not a big factor in this assesment.

Also The reason 61 recievers are ranked higher than Chambers is because it is based on efficiency so there will be recievers with less yards that rank higher due to less attempts. So a reciever with only 57 attempts that is not very well known yet will get ranked higher will completely be off the radar to the average person that is trying to think of 61 recievers better than Chambers.

By comparison though here are 3 different ranking systems for Chambers in 2005:

DPAR: 62
PAR: 61
DVOA: 73

 

[DonShula84]

Well some of you are mistaking the system as if it is flawed because it cannot seperate QB play from Reciever play but there is no system that can ever do that it's simply not possible to do in every situation. However Disnardo has provided comparison with Culpepper who is known for his accuracy on the deep ball and there is virtually no change in Chambers production nor has there ever been a noticeable change in Chambers production for an entire season throughout 6 different QB's, all the while the other recievers on the team catching passes from the same QB's numbers do tend to fluctuate so I think it's fair to say the QB is not a big factor in this assesment.

Also The reason 61 recievers are ranked higher than Chambers is because it is based on efficiency so there will be recievers with less yards that rank higher due to less attempts. So a reciever with only 57 attempts that is not very well known yet will get ranked higher will completely be off the radar to the average person that is trying to think of 61 recievers better than Chambers.

By comparison though here are 3 different ranking systems for Chambers in 2005:

DPAR: 62
PAR: 61
DVOA: 73

I dont really think the system is flawed, I think how people are using it and reading it flawed. I dont think it's just the QB, it's the entire offense. No system can take the QB out of the equation, true, but that doesnt mean we should just ignore that aspect of it. You still have to account for the entire team, which is what they are doing. People are ignoring that though. With Culpepper in there our offense was still bad, that hasnt changed. The play calling, the oline, the running game, the corner covering Chambers, all these play a part. You explanation of why Chambers was 62 is true, but that just shows the rankings this system comes up with shouldnt just be accepted as gospel. If you had no knowledge of NFL WRs and used just this system to judge WR you'd be foolish. It is interesting, and has its uses, but it is misleading.

 

[bluehaze]

I dont really think the system is flawed, I think how people are using it and reading it flawed. I dont think it's just the QB, it's the entire offense. No system can take the QB out of the equation, true, but that doesnt mean we should just ignore that aspect of it. You still have to account for the entire team, which is what they are doing. People are ignoring that though. With Culpepper in there our offense was still bad, that hasnt changed. The play calling, the oline, the running game, the corner covering Chambers, all these play a part. You explanation of why Chambers was 62 is true, but that just shows the rankings this system comes up with shouldnt just be accepted as gospel. If you had no knowledge of NFL WRs and used just this system to judge WR you'd be foolish. It is interesting, and has its uses, but it is misleading.

Nah, it's not foolish at all it's actually the most accurate system for judging a players talent that I have ever seen. Take for instance Lee Evans last year ranked higher than Chambers.

Lee Evans 50th 92 attempts 743 Yards 7 TD's 53% Comp
Chambers 62nd 166 attempts 1118 Yards 11 Td's 49 Comp

The average person would say, there is no way Lee Evans was a better reciever than Chris Chambers in 2005.

Yet the following year:

Lee Evans 6th 114 attempts 1043 Yards 4 TD's 60% comp
Chambers 80th 122 attempts 611 Yards 4 TD's 43% comp

Clearly Evans is the better reciever this year given more attempts, this is why efficiency is important, the more efficient the player the more production you will have from him given more attempts.

There are many similar comparisons that can be made from this system and it is generally considered to be the most accurate evaluation of individual player performance in existence at this time.

 

[DonShula84]

Why is it considered the most accurate evaluation of individual player performance when the people who made the system say it isnt about evaluating the individuals performance but the performace of his team?

And I'd still take Chambers last year over Evans, your state breakdown did nothing to change my mind on that.

But i'm done arguing in these Chambers threads. People can believe he is the worst WR in the league and continue to blame the downfall of the phins on him. Though if/when he turns it around and has a year like last year and makes the pro bowl dont be hypocrits and act like you supported him.

 

[HurriPhin]

And even with these stats smacking people upside there heads people still say Chambers is good or he is a #1 receiver.This guy is not even "decent" and it's NOT only this year.:shakeno:

Count me in too. Chambers is good, really good. Correct me if im wrong but im pretty sure I watched him in the Pro Bowl last year.

 

[bluehaze]

Why is it considered the most accurate evaluation of individual player performance when the people who made the system say it isnt about evaluating the individuals performance but the performace of his team?

You are misinterpreting what they are saying, they are saying the DPAR system cannot seperate the effect of one players performance due to anothers performance on the team. They are not evaluating the team as a whole in anyway they are assesing the individual player of the team in the best way possible while admitting that there is no 100% accurate way to individually asess one players performance in a team sport.

For instance in the WR category they say:

We cannot yet fully separate the performance of a receiver from the performance of his quarterback. Be aware that one will affect the other.

In the O-Line category they say:

However, it is important to understand that these ratings only somewhat separate the offensive line from the running backs. A team with a very good running back will appear higher no matter how bad their line, and a team with a great line with appear lower if the running back is terrible.

And so on...and so on...

 

[McMichael]

i said it since last year. chambers would be much better as a #2. he's a physical beast and is an all around good reciever. however he isn't quite elite. we need someone who can get open every game.