Dion Jordan and offset language

[NBP81]

This board cant even figure out who our general manager is. When will it decide theres a problem?

If people can make threads predicting next years record and next seasons impact players, why cant we predict an ugly situation thats likely to take place in the next few weeks? As well, its not like the OP just blindly made this up. If its being talked about in the media, shouldnt we talk about it in here?

Oh, and as far as "waiting for the problem before you freak the hell out", your post is needed in the 19 threads people have made concerning the Dolphins moving.

So if its being talked about in the media, there's a good chance it happens right? what happens if Jordan just signs the deal and doesn't miss a single practice? You"ll have spent close to 3 months ranting about a non-issue for nothing. Because that's what it is. A NON-issue. In the end, 100% this thing is solved And Jordan is on the field playing for the Fins day one. And the argument he's not a QB so he might not care to miss practice, well then him missing practice might not be that big of a deal anyways, cant have it both ways...

 

[CRAZYDOLFAN305]

The offset-language issue is a significant obstacle but I don't foresee it preventing many players from signing and reporting to training camp on time. Too many other elements of those contracts already are in place under the rookie pay system for a final detail to hold up an agreement for long. The amount of money at stake is relatively modest, in NFL terms, and in most cases players taken early in the draft are not released within their first four seasons.

While everyone is busy worrying about off-set, the big issue is going to be whether the contract would be fully guaranteed. Like the fully guaranteed four-year deal for $21 million that second overall choice, linebacker/DE Von Miller, signed with the Denver Broncos.

 

[roy_miami]

Not sure I follow your $50 or $100 per player value for offset language in a contract, however I would be interested in seeing the history of it and examples of teams that have saved money using it.

It's basically insurance, if you make a $10k insurance claim you didn't just get a free $10k, you have to figure in all the money you paid for the insurance. When you figure in the likelihood you'll ever need insurance the long term expected value for you is negative, this is easy to prove by how much money insurance companies make.

The offset language is much more complicated to calculate value with everything considered, obviously the Dolphins feel like they gain a long term profit. My guess is that profit is somewhere between $50-$10k per contract which is pretty trivial in the grand scheme of things.

As CK pointed out, if the player signs with another team it'll almost be guaranteed to be for the league minimum to give his new team a break and stick it to the Dolphins, so In Tannehill's case if we paid him more than $500k to sign with the offset language then the Dolphins gained pretty much nothing.

 

[Ruckus45]

I've never heard of this before, but I love the contracts we are signing have this language in it. Anything we can do, no matter how small, to help prevent future cap hell sounds good to me.

The way I see it we can
A. Not have these in the contracts to protect ourselves and possibly cut some good players to make cap space.
B. Be tied to these contracts and make tough decisions a la the Jests.
C. Have offset language in these contracts to give us more options.

I pick C

 

[Spesh]

So if its being talked about in the media, there's a good chance it happens right? what happens if Jordan just signs the deal and doesn't miss a single practice? You"ll have spent close to 3 months ranting about a non-issue for nothing. Because that's what it is. A NON-issue. In the end, 100% this thing is solved And Jordan is on the field playing for the Fins day one. And the argument he's not a QB so he might not care to miss practice, well then him missing practice might not be that big of a deal anyways, cant have it both ways...

And yet there are countless threads out there with people enraged at the thought of moving, which has 0 chance of happening.

But fair enough, feel free to focus on the real point ive been repeating: this is a stupid friggin policy. It doesnt matter if Jordan suffers for it or not. The policy is idiotic, petty, and shortsighted.

And hilarious misreading of my post. I chuckled. No where did i say the only reason why Tannehill wanted to practice was because he was a qb(or whatever you were accusing me of saying). I said Tannehill was invested and we dont know if Jordan shared his commitment.

 

[Spesh]

To the best of my knowledge I don't believe we have had a hold out since Ireland has been the GM, except for Ryan Tannehill which lasted about half of the morning practice session. Ireland has always done a good job of getting picks signed and into camp. I have no reason to believe this will be different, in reality its a very small insignificant part of the contract, however we have set the precedent in the past and that is his way of doing rookie contracts. Since it hasn't been a problem in the past I have no reason to believe it will be with Jordan.

Wake, Tannehill, and Starks have held out.

Of course, Wake and Starks arent "real" holdouts. And Tannehill's holdout....well, that was a good thing. Still not sure how, the logic behind it is something of a moving target, but thats been the story for over a year now.

If the worse were to occur, im sure Jordan's holdout will be a good thing. Or not at least not a big deal. Or a shrewd decision for the franchise. Or Parcells fault. Something like that.

 

[Wildbill3]

Wake, Tannehill, and Starks have held out.

Of course, Wake and Starks arent "real" holdouts. And Tannehill's holdout....well, that was a good thing. Still not sure how, the logic behind it is something of a moving target, but thats been the story for over a year now.

If the worse were to occur, im sure Jordan's holdout will be a good thing. Or not at least not a big deal. Or a shrewd decision for the franchise. Or Parcells fault. Something like that.

how many games did those players miss in their holdouts?

 

[Spesh]

how many games did those players miss in their holdouts?

Does missing practice help or hurt them when it comes time to playing those games?

 

[Wildbill3]

Does missing practice help or hurt them when it comes time to playing those games?

I don't know you tell me. You're the one pointing out their holdouts as something that jeff shouldn't have allowed and that may have affected their performance during the season. I can say they didn't miss any games. what can you prove?

 

[HarryBagpipe]

Don't know if it will ever become a relevant issue but a certain idiom about being penny wise but pound foolish comes to mind

 

[Spesh]

I don't know you tell me. You're the one pointing out their holdouts as something that jeff shouldn't have allowed and that may have affected their performance during the season. I can say they didn't miss any games. what can you prove?

That players historically dont improve their ability to play football when they lack conditioning and coaching. In fact, it almost always goes in the opposite direction. For example: Mike Wallace held out last offseason for the Steelers. Despite returning before he missed any real games, he dealt with nagging injuries and his production dropped.

You seem to be suggesting that every holdout will result like our past situation. I disagree, i think its counterproductive to this team if our players miss practice. Even if they end up like Tannehill and perform admirably, i seriously doubt they did well because of their holdout.

edit: and because you asked, another example of skipping practice but playing in games:

Revis had a contract dispute with the Jets, missed much of training camp, and dealt with hamstring issues that year. He had a decent season, but it wasn't up to his usual standards. Revis played in 13 games in 2010, and it was the only time in his career Revis didn't play all 16 games in a season.

http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/60748/darrelle-revis-injury-a-repeat-of-2010

There are many more.

 

[Vampire Nicolas]

Why the hell are some people talking about Jordan as if he is currently in a holdout? We still have over two and a half months before he needs to be signed. Wake me up in late July when this becomes a problem. Correction, IF this becomes a problem. Though I doubt that will stop those who like to complain about hypothetical nonsense from complaining.

 

[Wildbill3]

That players historically dont improve their ability to play football when they lack conditioning and coaching. In fact, it almost always goes in the opposite direction. For example: Mike Wallace held out last offseason for the Steelers. Despite returning before he missed any real games, he dealt with nagging injuries and his production dropped.

You seem to be suggesting that every holdout will result like our past situation. I disagree, i think its counterproductive to this team if our players miss practice. Even if they end up like Tannehill and perform admirably, i seriously doubt they did well because of their holdout.

edit: and because you asked, another example of skipping practice but playing in games:



http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/60748/darrelle-revis-injury-a-repeat-of-2010

There are many more.

you're suggesting that mike Wallace holding out had more of an affect on his performance than a QB rotation and a sporadic Big ben? laughable. Finally, the practices Tannehill missed hardly seemed to have affected him, because he strung together two periods of time during the season with no turnovers, something very few of his other rookies could claim and outside of griese and pennington, he's the only rookie and only the third qb in dolphins history to go four games without an interception in a row. Anyway I can prove what they did, the burden of proof is on you to prove what they should've and could've done had they been at every single practice.

 

[Spesh]

you're suggesting that mike Wallace holding out had more of an affect on his performance than a QB rotation and a sporadic Big ben? laughable. Finally, the practices Tannehill missed hardly seemed to have affected him, because he strung together two periods of time during the season with no turnovers, something very few of his other rookies could claim and outside of griese and pennington, he's the only rookie and only the third qb in dolphins history to go four games without an interception in a row. Anyway I can prove what they did, the burden of proof is on you to prove what they should've and could've done had they been at every single practice.

Deny evidence then immediately demand more! All the while demanding i prove something thats impossible. Highly impressed.

Ive proven that players who holdout do not improve their play. And in fact, it can hurt their seasons, even if they play games(which was your original standard).

Im still waiting to learn how holding out improves ones play. I didnt see that in your long sentence about specifically chosen statics concerning our young quarterback. Did like the "it hardly seemed to affect him" part. Lemme guess, if i stated "it seemed to affect him greatly", youd object?

 

[BlueFin]

It's basically insurance, if you make a $10k insurance claim you didn't just get a free $10k, you have to figure in all the money you paid for the insurance. When you figure in the likelihood you'll ever need insurance the long term expected value for you is negative, this is easy to prove by how much money insurance companies make.

The offset language is much more complicated to calculate value with everything considered, obviously the Dolphins feel like they gain a long term profit. My guess is that profit is somewhere between $50-$10k per contract which is pretty trivial in the grand scheme of things.

As CK pointed out, if the player signs with another team it'll almost be guaranteed to be for the league minimum to give his new team a break and stick it to the Dolphins, so In Tannehill's case if we paid him more than $500k to sign with the offset language then the Dolphins gained pretty much nothing.

Not exactly...because the year they sign with the other team they get that the whole amount of his new deal in cap break.