Dolphins Building The Offensive Line | Page 4 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

Dolphins Building The Offensive Line

You make a great point, it's very possible to build an OL without high draft picks. But, it's worth mentioning a few other points to provide full transparency for this discussion.

1. The Patriots have made a living of trading down and getting lots of middle and lower round draft picks. Rather than concentrating on quality, they've been concentrating on quantity, by drafting a LOT more OL prospects than most other teams. It's the shotgun approach, and for them, it's worked. Primarily because Belichick is a good coach and has been able to attract good OL coaches who have made chicken salad out of Chixstix. But for us to do that it requires good coaching and lots of ammo, not taking 1 OL each draft.

2. The Patriots have had a lot of offensive lines throughout Brady's career and Belichick's coaching stint, and that has definitely included high round draft picks like Nate Solder and Logan Mankins. The Patriots have actually put more resources into finding an OL than most teams, so while TODAY'S Patriots OL is all mid to late round picks, that's not the totality of their strategy. Remember, this is the team that also trades for OL.

3. Today's Patriot offense is one of quick passing, designed so that the OL does not have to block very long. Stated another way, the entire offense is geared to hide the deficiencies of the Patriot OL. Sure, with precise route running and quick receivers, that's possible to get open quickly. Utilizing the precision accuracy of Tom Brady, they almost never turn the ball over. But, having a Tom Brady isn't an easy to find piece, and without that piece, this offense doesn't work.

Your point is clear and correct. It is possible to find an effective OL with mid to late round draft picks. But, it's not universally applicable. Without a hyper-accurate QB who doesn't turn the ball over, that Patriot offense doesn't work. Without using a LOT of mid and late round picks (and possibly trading for more picks and players) finding enough to fill an entire OL isn't very likely. And, if we're looking at how the Patriots have done it, there is a lot of data not being considered here, including a lot of high draft picks too. So, for the full picture, let's remember that it is hard to find good OL, and finding role player OL limits what you can do on offense and requires greatness elsewhere (like hyper-accurate QB's) to make it effective. None of the QB's in the 2019 draft are good enough to win with the Patriot's OL. Only two or three in the 2020 draft are good enough to win with the Patriot's OL. Fromm is the only one today that is accurate enough to pull that off.

If you're going to skimp on the OL, like Gase did, then you need to get elite talent at QB. That's just how it works.
I like all your points, except I disagree with #3.

Brady can get the ball out quickly, but that line buys him so much time!! So many Sundays I’m looking at him taking his time, and I’m screaming that no DLs are breaking through the line. When he wants the time, it’s there. As opposed to our OL which collapses quickly
 
I don't care about team trends in betting or personnel. As soon as a team trend acquires some hype it is generally past its peak and already starting to normalize.

Every era has an occasional elite offensive lineman. Nobody quarreled with John Hannah being picked near the top of the draft. There was actually some ridicule of the Bengals taking Anthony Munoz so early, due to injury concerns. But Munoz had that Frank Gore type of career where the serious injuries were prevalent in college but gone once he reached the NFL.

Recently we've had a couple of guards picked high and they panned out for the Cowboys and Colts. That's nice. We had our own example with the tackle Tunsil.

But top players at those position are generally lesser athletes, and lesser athletes by definition are picked later in the draft. That is what the Dolphins should do, ignoring the recent team trend or anything that has occurred with the current playoff teams. Just make sure to be aware of the traits that are likely to identify the linemen who pan out. I posted that link a few weeks ago. Character and desire are most important as long as you don't have a significant physical weakness like balance or power/punch.

Last thing we want to do is improve the team piece by piece to the point we are feeling all swell about ourselves, only to reach a playoff game and see that the offensive line uptick was mostly a mirage, and we still are not much of anything because our quarterback and passing game are simply not NFL playoff caliber.

I think it starts with playcalling. The gap between playcallers who maximize opportunities and those who don't is huge. Seahawks are a good example of a team with an elite QB who still struggle to score at a rate that's necessary to compete, because the playcalling puts Wilson on the shelf until the team is in a negative situation. Houston is another example.

Then QB is famously most important. If your QB can't capitalize on the playcalling advantages, those advantages go up in smoke.

Then OL. A quality OL opens up the playbook and allows the OC to hide the obvious flaws of good-enough QB's. The Rams and Goff come to mind. When they've faced DL's that can neutralize their OL advantage, they've really struggled. When they've been able to give Goff clean looks off play action, they've been dynamic.

The best offenses have all three - even though the quality of their skill positions varies to some degree. In general, it's hard to field a quality OL and relatively easy to field a good group of WR's and RB's. Only a few teams have significant needs in the latter; whereas, most of the teams that missed the playoffs, and some who made it, have significant weaknesses in the former.

In 2018, and for the foreseeable future, I see OC > QB > OL as the differentiating factors in consistent winners. For whatever reason (discussion for another post), teams struggle to keep great D's great year after year. I think a lot of it is that offenses dictate the terms, and with advances in playcalling for the haves (vs the have-nots), there's only so much a defense can do. You need high-end players at every level, or the offense will just attack your weaknesses. But, if a team doesn't have the OL to set this up, a good DL will be able to shift the terms and make the offense reactionary. A dynamic QB can do some things to overcome a shaky OL, though.
 
I like all your points, except I disagree with #3.

Brady can get the ball out quickly, but that line buys him so much time!! So many Sundays I’m looking at him taking his time, and I’m screaming that no DLs are breaking through the line. When he wants the time, it’s there. As opposed to our OL which collapses quickly
When you look at the schemes given, Brady's "time" breaks down into clear silos.

One silo is when the defense is playing defending with 7 or 8 guys and only rushing 3 or 4 guys. Typically, the OL has the advantage of double teaming one or two players, and if the offense keeps in a TE, maybe as many as 3 guys get double-teamed. That's not winning with blocking, that's just shooting fish in a barrel, so of course Brady has time. One of the primary reasons that the Patriots run game looks effective is because they run against 4 and 5 man boxes with all pass defenders behind them, so those OL are simply taking what the defense is giving them. Smart.

A second silo is when the defense blitzes, so it's sending extra men. When that happens the Patriots RB's are good at pass protection, so they execute their blitz pickups well. In those situations, Brady can throw the ball away, and doesn't hesitate to do so if he thinks he might get hit. This is why Brady doesn't do so well against pressure. But, the scheme that Josh McDaniels runs tends to pick up and compensate for pressure pretty well. Also, as you mentioned, the offense is designed to get the ball out of Brady's hand fast, to minimize the effects of pressure. So pressure can be effective, but with quick WR's getting open and a hyper-precise thrower of the ball, they can still move the chains when there is pressure. But, that requires a QB who can maintain that hyper-precise throwing. When you throw a lot of short passes, your stats look artificially good, but the chances of turning the ball over actually go up, despite the INT per throw going down drastically. Brady is the best in the league at avoiding INT's. Again, this is highly dependent upon a QB who is not only accurate, but consistently hyper-accurate, and very few NFL QB's could run this, much less rookies.

The third silo is massive pressure, overload blitzes or jail-breaks if you prefer. This is when the defense puts more people in one area than the offense has blockers, assuring that they get a rusher unblocked into the QB. There getting the ball out quickly and accepting throw aways is all you can do. Brady doesn't go long a bunch in those situations, he stays safe and gets the ball out, if the play is there, he makes it, if not, he throws it away.

Yes, Brady has a lot of time to throw, and yes that is the basis of how he can stay good and stay healthy. But it is the defense being unable to affect Brady more than it is the defense being unable to affect the OL.

If you look at the defenses that dominate the Patriots, it's not ones that bring pressure necessarily. Moreso, it's the defenses that can apply super-tight coverage on the underneath routes, like the Falcons in the Super Bowl before they inexplicably started playing Prevent Defense and gave the game to the Patriots who wore them out with death by a thousand cuts of short underneath throws. If you can clamp down on those underneath routes and prevent Brady from having an open guy in the short patterns, that OL isn't good enough to consistently stop pressure no matter how many guys you bring. But if you let those short route receivers like Edelman get open, Brady is going to kill you with his hyper-precise passing, and it doesn't require an OL to block for almost any time at all.
 
We have a prob tho. Our picks-Thomas, Asiata, etc- dont seem to develop. Is that poor talent selection or poor coaching?
Dallas Thomas was atrocious and nobody on the team wanted to be accountable for that. Why he remained after the Philbin years was dumb decision making. He was the worst graded guard in the NFL. No idea why they felt he should continue playing.

Asiata is an unknown quantity. It will just depend on who our o line coach is and his personal evaluation of him. Ill give him a shot because Gase and buddies were legit morons and rolled out Bushrod, Larsen, Thomas and Turner and said don't worry about it. In fact Bushrod was one of the worst guards and Gase brushed it off and played him because they are friends. Why asiata didn't get a chance late last year is just another dumb personnel decision. So let's see next year
 
Since Parcels took over in 2008, the only good linemen we have drafted were 1st round picks. Although we did get "some" decent use out of Donald Thomas & John Jerry. The FA/UDFA pool is pretty sad as well.

Rd-pick-O/A

Chris Grier (2016-present)
5 20 164 Isaac Asiata G Utah
1 13 13 Laremy Tunsil T Mississippi

Dennis Hickey/Mike Tannenbaum (2015)
4 15 114 Jamil Douglas G

Dennis Hickey (2014)
1 19 19 Ja'Wuan James T Tennessee
3 3 67 Billy Turner T North Dakota State

Jeff Ireland (2011-2013)
3 15 77 Dallas Thomas T Tennessee
2 10 42 Jonathan Martin T Stanford
1 15 15 Mike Pouncey G Florida

Bill Parcels/Jeff Ireland (2008-2010)
3 9 73 John Jerry G Mississippi
6 8 181 Andrew Gardner T Georgia Tech
1 1 1 Jake Long T Michigan
4 11 110 Shawn Murphy G Utah State
6 29 195 Donald Thomas G Connecticut

Free agent signings & UDFA

2008 Justin Smiley LG (27 games)
2009 Jake Grove C (12 games)
2009 Ike Ndukewe, Joe Berger, Brandon Frye, Nate Garner, Andy Alleman, Andrew Gardner
2010 Richie Incognito, Corey Proctor, Pat McQuiston, Lydon Murtha
2011 Ray Fienga, Mark Colombo
2012 Will Yeatman, Josh Samuda, Artis Hicks,
2013 Danny Watkins, Tyson Clabo
2014 Branden Albert, Shelley Smith, Jason Fox
2015 Sam Brenner, Jacques McClendon, Jeff Linkenbach, Donald Hawkins
2016 Anthony Steen, Kraig Urbik, John Ulrick, Jermon Bushrod, Sam Young
2017 Jake Brendel, Jessie Davis, Eric Smith, Ted Larsen
 
We have a prob tho. Our picks-Thomas, Asiata, etc- dont seem to develop. Is that poor talent selection or poor coaching?

Did Dallas Thomas "develop" after he left here? He now plays for the Memphis Express of the Alliance of American Football. Asiata is too soon to say but it seems like he is not a great fit for the zone scheme. You never know if he could go on to be good in a more power/man based system. We have had several OL over the last 15 or so years go on to be pretty good players (Joe Berger, Evan Mathis) but that really has nothing to do with our last coaching staff....or our next one.

Billy Turner is still on the Broncos and played 76% of the snaps last year at LG. At what level, I do not know. PFF has him at "average" with a 62.8 grade. Jesse Davis had a 55.6 grade at RG. Ted Larsen is at 42.6.
 
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This reminds me of a mistake I made a few years ago. In looking at the Seahawks secondary, I said, 'Gee, they got Richard Sherman in the 5th and Byron Maxwell in the 6th, and they have one of the best Pass D's of all time. Why would anyone draft a CB in the 1st or 2nd Round?' Some teams will be able to identify talent at particular positions that fit their scheme and excel without having to invest premium picks. The Packers were also very good at this with regard to OL.

If you can do it, great! It's obviously an advantage. But, if you can't, OL is not a position where you compromise. You need high-quality players there - just like CB.
In addition, the O-line is really a sum of its parts type unit. Really have to limit weak spots. We’ve seen it with Dallas thomas, the LG after loss of Sitton, the backup tackle. The poor play becomes contagious as well
 
These scouts have been building the OL for about 8 years.
 
Did Dallas Thomas "develop" after he left here? He now plays for the Memphis Express of the Alliance of American Football. Asiata is too soon to say but it seems like he is not a great fit for the zone scheme. You never know if he could go on to be good in a more power/man based system. We have had several OL over the last 15 or so years go on to be pretty good players (Joe Berger, Evan Mathis) but that really has nothing to do with our last coaching staff....or our next one.

Billy Turner is still on the Broncos and played 76% of the snaps last year at LG. At what level, I do not know. PFF has him at "average" with a 62.8 grade. Jesse Davis had a 55.6 grade at RG. Ted Larsen is at 42.6.
I always thought Turner had more of a chance than Thomas


That dude was so bad. Someone should post some gifs of him getting blown up
 
i know this is a stupid idea. but i wish the dolphins would use every single pick on this draft for offensive line. it would almost guarantee an elite offensive line that would be young and grow for the next 10 years. then next year defensive line. and if a player is light years up on your board, you could make an exception.
 
The problem has always been one of coaching (along with a QB that has zero pocket awareness and clearly doesn't understand how to make adjustments) rather than players. I'm done throwing high end draft stock at the line until we get the QB and coach in place to make it worth our while.
 
Yes. We must improve the offensive line (more to insure a successful ground game) and pass on all pocket passers; we must sign a mobile quarterback without question. From there we need to build a solid defense...this is the priority in my book. With a defensive-minded HC, this point is a no brainer. Defense wins championships; that's the mindset going into next season or forget everything.
 
Yes. We must improve the offensive line (more to insure a successful ground game) and pass on all pocket passers; we must sign a mobile quarterback without question. From there we need to build a solid defense...this is the priority in my book. With a defensive-minded HC, this point is a no brainer. Defense wins championships; that's the mindset going into next season or forget everything.

The mantra that "defense wins championships", while still true, is not as clear cut as it once was.

Yes, a once in a decade type D can carry a team, but the rule changes that promote scoring have mitigated the advantages.
 
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