Herbert Shines In Front Of Dolphins Brass First Senior Bowl Practice

[dolfan91]

If you're "small" as a QB in the N F L you better have some other serious compensation
for the lack of stature. Namely -- superior athletics and the ability to deliver the ball
when confronted by obstructed views via big uglies in your face!

That said, it's silly to contest the fact there are certain positional specs that tend to translate
towards positive outcomes in the PROs, and in many positions height is a significant factor.
Short QBs are at a definite disadvantage in comparison to a dude that's 6-4 or 6-5 or...

In this case SIZE definitely matters and you either got it or you don't. If you don't then you're
going to have to overcome that disadvantage through some notable superior attribute -- namely
athletics, quicks, allusiveness, whatever...

Brees is a good example because the dude is actually a terrific athlete who could dunk over the goal
post not too many years ago. Plus he's been very mobile and good on the move his entire career...

But -- would Drew Brees have benefited from being 4 or 5 inches taller?

I think that's a given.

Fantastic Post. Very well explains the height issue at the QB position. The smaller QB's who've had success always tend to have other intangibles that gets them to play much bigger than the given height disadvantage.

 

[BigNastyFish]

One of the main aspects that have allowed shorter QB's to function at a high level in the NFL over the past 2 decades is playing in the shotgun. NFL QB's are in the shotgun about 63% of the time on average for all plays combined - and 76% on average in the shotgun on passing plays.

Furthermore, shorter QB's are more adept at manipulating and finding passing lanes than taller QB's because they have to be, and have always had to be. Taller QB's get passes batted at the LOS at a higher rate. Avoiding this has more to do with eyes and feet than height. It's possible Brees may have benefited from another 4-5 inches, but not in height.

Tua is probably the best at getting the ball off with defenders in his face than any quarterback I've seen, at any height.

I'd also disagree that Murray or Mayfield haven't proven anything yet. They've proven they're better than a lot of 6'4" quarterbacks, because a lot of them aren't very good either.

Straight up -- you think Tua would be a "better prospect" if he was 6-5?

Would those extra inches be a benefit?

 

[Pachyderm_Wave]

Straight up -- you think Tua would be a "better prospect" if he was 6-5?

Would those extra inches be a benefit?

I do not.

He might be a better prototype - maybe a better "profile" for those that prefer to evaluate quarterback profiles instead of quarterbacks. I don't believe he'd be a better player or a better prospect. It's a silly question.

Do you believe Josh Rosen would be a better prospect if he was taller?

 

[BigNastyFish]

I mean... Imagine a 5-11 version of Dan Marino.

How "hot" is that!

 

[BigNastyFish]

I do not.

He might be a better prototype - maybe a better "profile" for those that prefer to evaluate quarterback profiles instead of quarterbacks. I don't believe he'd be a better player or a better prospect. It's a silly question.

Do you believe Josh Rosen would be a better prospect if he was taller?

Rosen has "ideal" height. Just about perfect.

Beyond that, your answer is pure BS IMO.

So if he was 4 ft he'd be just as good????

Height either matters or it doesn't!

Bigger is better -- too a degree!

 

[Pachyderm_Wave]

Rosen has "ideal" height. Just about perfect.

Beyond that, your answer is pure BS IMO.

So if he was 4 ft he'd be just as good????

Height either matters or it doesn't!

Bigger is better -- too a degree!

Rosen does have ideal height - to hold a clipboard for a 6'0" quarterback like Tyrod Taylor.

 

[BigNastyFish]

One of the main aspects that have allowed shorter QB's to function at a high level in the NFL over the past 2 decades is playing in the shotgun. NFL QB's are in the shotgun about 63% of the time on average for all plays combined - and 76% on average in the shotgun on passing plays.

Furthermore, shorter QB's are more adept at manipulating and finding passing lanes than taller QB's because they have to be, and have always had to be. Taller QB's get passes batted at the LOS at a higher rate. Avoiding this has more to do with eyes and feet than height. It's possible Brees may have benefited from another 4-5 inches, but not in height.

Tua is probably the best at getting the ball off with defenders in his face than any quarterback I've seen, at any height.

I'd also disagree that Murray or Mayfield haven't proven anything yet. They've proven they're better than a lot of 6'4" quarterbacks, because a lot of them aren't very good either.

Too funny pacman...

You rebuke Mayfield consistently and with great enthusiasm yet...
use him as an example to support short stubby QBs! ????

I spy a serious inconsistency!

So you "like" Mayfield now?

He's a "good one?"

 

[A1.]

I find that line ("perfect ball placement") a tad overrated re Tua.... As far as little dump offs etc. those are too easy to count.
But I did notice on a number of quick slats etc. the ball was not always "perfect" -- throwing slightly behind being the most common.
But overall -- yeah the kid has good accuracy but he wasn't throwing into tight windows for the most part and certainly wasn't
throwing darts deep downfield where VELOCITY + ACCURACY are important.

Bottom line I just see a player (QB) that's more limited than his most fervent supporters admit. I also question the kids quickness
in relation to escapability -- as evidenced by his 2 injuries resulting in surgery. The kid looks a little heavy footed to me and
I doubt his 40 time would be anything notable. So I'm not sold on his core athleticism -- thus IMO he needs an excellent
surrounding cast and a system that maximizes his strengths and minimizes his weaknesses to be efficient at the PRO level.
To me that specification sounds like a lot of QB prospects -- including a kid like Rosen.

I guess I just don't see the "great savior" some do. And I think the hype around here is a tad nauseating -- like trading 3 or 4 #1s
to move up and select this kid. That's beyond ridiculous IMO.

you truly identify tua as a “dink and dunk” qb? That’s what his play suggests to you?

how about the fact he was 4/5 w/ over 200 yards and multiple touchdowns on throws that traveled more than 20 yards in the air against LSU?

 

[Pachyderm_Wave]

Too funny pacman...

You rebuke Mayfield consistently and with great enthusiasm yet...
use him as an example to support short stubby QBs! ????

I spy a serious inconsistency!

So you "like" Mayfield now?

He's a "good one?"

I'm simply stating facts. Mayfield and Murray have proven to be better than a lot of QB's with ideal height - particularly Josh Rosen. That's all I said. So just stop there and quit trying to add to it.

 

[maralieus]

I really like Herbert as a prospect. He's tall, got a strong arm, can run well, he's very smart and a hard worker, there's nothing to not like about him. Even after watching him throw a few ugly picks in some games I'm not worried about that. I think with the right coaching and a year of grooming behind a veteran QB gunslinger like let's say, Ryan Fitzpatrick, he should do well. I'd take him at 5 honestly unless they think he would be there at 18. Honestly at this point I could get excited about burrow, tua, Herbert or Love. Just bring one in.

 

[DolfanISS]

Herbert scares me. I like what I've heard, read and seen regarding his physical skills. I don't like what I've heard and read about his personality. Maybe I'm misinformed, because I haven't heard that much about it, but it reminds me of Rob Johnson. I just think you need an out spoken leader at QB.

 

[Mach2]

While I havent really followed the actual discussion you're engaged in, I would like to bring another point of view. While Murray and Baker havent proven anything yet, they still got drafted 1st overall in 2 consecutive drafts. So it seems another ineffeciency has been arbitraged away when it comes to QBs.

What once kept smaller QBs from getting drafted high in the draft is now somehat irrelevant. I think its fair to say if Wilson was a prospect in the 2020 draft, he wouldnt fall past the 10 overall as that was pretty much his biggest knock coming out.

Im not trying to make a point as to wether Tua will be great or not, just that his height is not likely to be involved in teams decision making process.

I think it depends a lot on what a team/coach/GM have in mind.

Murray, for example, has a system that is tailored to his particular skill set.

You may see it as irrelevant, but it only matters what the organization sees as relevant.

I'll say it again. Wilson and Brees are outliers. 6 of 8 playoff QBs this year are 6'2" or bigger.

I haven't gone back through history, but I think you would find that more successful QBs are bigger, as opposed to smallish.

Height is not a reason in itself to pass on player xxxx, but prototypical size is a thing for a reason.

You can say the league is changing, and that may be so. You can point to small guys who are/were successful. There are far more who are are bigger, and that really is just how it is.

 

[Joe Dolfan]

I guess we just have to disagree. You don't, as a rule, take "outliers" with high first round picks.

If Tua were completely healthy, you could make a case that his skill level is worth the risk. A Doug Flutie type perhaps. I still wouldn't like it, but i can see it. Now, however, you factor in his injury history, it's just "a bridge too far" for me. Any QB is a risk to some extent. Being undersized adds to the risk. Now we have a very serious injury, and a history compounding it even further.

I get swinging for the fences, but if the pitch is low and outside you have to lay off.

. . .unless you're Pablo Sandoval.

 

[NBP81]

I think it depends a lot on what a team/coach/GM have in mind.

Murray, for example, has a system that is tailored to his particular skill set.

You may see it as irrelevant, but it only matters what the organization sees as relevant.

I'll say it again. Wilson and Brees are outliers. 6 of 8 playoff QBs this year are 6'2" or bigger.

I haven't gone back through history, but I think you would find that more successful QBs are bigger, as opposed to smallish.

Height is not a reason in itself to pass on player xxxx, but prototypical size is a thing for a reason.

You can say the league is changing, and that may be so. You can point to small guys who are/were successful. There are far more who are are bigger, and that really is just how it is.

They're outliers in terms of volume thats for sure... But when it comes to performance, there's not much correlation between height and production...

 

[Dsteve]

If they take Herbert my leash for them as a supportive fan is short.