It was the un-coachable Dolphins Defense not Fangio.......... | Page 4 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

It was the un-coachable Dolphins Defense not Fangio..........

Fangio had Miami's defense, ranked in the top 5, for several weeks, during the season. He did a hell of a job, in spite of all the drama, behind the scenes, and also having issues with Miami's scoring defense.

And considering what he was able to accomplish with two rookie DB's, in Philadelphia, is remarkable. Good old school coach.
I think Fangio soured from dealing with McGoober, and pansy @$$ approach. . He had the defense playing pretty good late in the year when it seemed like half the team was in the training room. His pass rusher OLB, AVG was our only pass rusher who couldn't get by an OT to save his life, and we had spoiled kids, thanks to McGoober, who didn't like being told what to do by an 'old guy'. Everybody knew he wanted to be home in Philly, but he did his job here at a high level with what he had to work with. IMO. Culture is a combo of coaching and player accountability.
 
This team needs a "Heartbreak Ridge" (The Movie) sort of intervention. I don't know why those guy's quit in the Tenn game but they damn sure did. Some of the perps are gone, that's a start. Hopefully the hierarchy has recognized the problem and is taking step to correct it.
 
I think Fangio soured from dealing with McGoober, and pansy @$$ approach. . He had the defense playing pretty good late in the year when it seemed like half the team was in the training room. His pass rusher OLB, AVG was our only pass rusher who couldn't get by an OT to save his life, and we had spoiled kids, thanks to McGoober, who didn't like being told what to do by an 'old guy'. Everybody knew he wanted to be home in Philly, but he did his job here at a high level with what he had to work with. IMO. Culture is a combo of coaching and player accountability.
Lol Fangio walked into one of the most talented defenses in the league who could get home with rushing only 4 guys.
 
McD is 100% against that type of leadership and discipline, that's why. It's not rocket surgery. The inmates have been allowed to run the asylum so long, its borderline in their DNA...it will take a purging to remove the cancer.

It's almost like tanking in order to "build a winning culture" must not have worked?!

It's almost like it was just a stupid, reactionary, impulsive move executed on the bad assumptions of an out-of-touch group of visionaries!
 
You’re trying to compare apples to oranges.

First, players back then the players weren’t millionaires. They did OK (made like $25k per year… which is about $150k in today’s money.)

Second, the players were still the ones who built the culture. Zonk, Griese, Little… and others…built the culture.

Third, I get the need to romanticize sports and the athletes. It’s like kids believing in magic. The HC is a part of the team, so in that he is A PART of making that culture. But they are a small, very small, part of it.

Last, how can a HC, particularly in today’s times, going to punish a player? They can’t. They can bench them and possibly lose a game or more. They can suggest that the league fines them. (Players won’t care). What’s left? Yelling? The HC is a teacher and motivator and manager…not much else. At least in the NFL. Do you think it was Belichick who set the culture in New England? Why did they suck and turn undisciplined and lazy in one season? Brady set the culture there.

This is such a major unknown to so many people...'how do you create authority in a vacuum?'

I think the truth is that it's tied to winning. If the team is winning, the players are much more likely / willing to fall in line.

The one commonality among the best teams is their....winning.

...as a result, the HC is there to take on the necessary tasks each year which help those areas that are falling behind.

In this sense, leadership has to be dynamic. It has to move to where it's needed most. It not just a hierarchy of people telling their underlings what to do. In fact, anyone who thinks of leadership in those terms is almost bound to get it wrong in practice.

There's a reason why HCs in the NFL are expected to work 75-hr weeks....because results are mostly a function of effort.

I don't know how many people here work inside a large business but that's exactly the case there as well. What it takes to be a successful Project Manager is...effort, plain and simple.

You simply have to be willing to drive issues on behalf of the Client when called upon which essentially means all-day, every-day. You will have the most busy calendar of anyone in the office. It'll be draining. You will not have room for almost anything else in your life when you're busy.

Most people don't want that. They don't think about or ask for jobs like that. Most people avoid responsibility as much as possible, thus they don't even think of jobs where the success of the group is a direct result of one individual's effort alone. That kind of job sounds like hell to most people...and it probably would be.

From what I know of the NFL's best coaches...they're just tirelessly involved. That's the best way I can describe it. They manage & delegate, sure, but they're also present in almost every area of what's going on. They give off an energy that gets results. They aren't explicitly offense or defense. They're not all about just calling plays or working with the QB.
 
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It’s a McDaniel fault lol
Vic was head coach of defense. It’s on the players and him. I can blame McDaniel for a lot but not this.

He wanted to bring in Vic in. He knew Vic was good d coach. That was smart hire at time.

Where it falls apart is on Vic and d players.

Vic never wanted to be here. Didn’t bother making connections with players or staff.

Players saw that too.

Then you have guys like holland Ramsey X who don’t have the best reputation for being team guys.

Vic sets the culture with the defense.

If you don’t like McDaniel I got no problem with that He had issues But don’t blame him for this.
Did Special Teams have their own culture, untouched by McDaniel, too?

This is kinda silly. The head coach sets the tone for the entire team.
 
Did Special Teams have their own culture, untouched by McDaniel, too?

This is kinda silly. The head coach sets the tone for the entire team.
I don’t think so. Does Andy Reid or did Dick Vermeil, to name just a few, “set a tone”? Probably not. They are great teachers.
 
It’s a McDaniel fault lol
Vic was head coach of defense. It’s on the players and him. I can blame McDaniel for a lot but not this.

He wanted to bring in Vic in. He knew Vic was good d coach. That was smart hire at time.

Where it falls apart is on Vic and d players.

Vic never wanted to be here. Didn’t bother making connections with players or staff.

Players saw that too.

Then you have guys like holland Ramsey X who don’t have the best reputation for being team guys.

Vic sets the culture with the defense.

If you don’t like McDaniel I got no problem with that He had issues But don’t blame him for this.
This

Vic never wanted to be here.

Ramsey and Holland clashed big time with him.

Those three cancers are long gone

McDaniel takes the hit because his GM acquired those bitches.

Culture now is better off without those three

Weaver is the next big star and can design a nice scheme for his players
 
I don’t think so. Does Andy Reid or did Dick Vermeil, to name just a few, “set a tone”? Probably not. They are great teachers.
Sure.

Let me ask you a question. Do you think that giving a different player the right to pick a song playlist each day while they wear an orange jersey “sets a tone”?
 
So Fangio isn't a leader?

This isn't pop warner or NCAA football. These are grown men with millions of dollars. They do what they want.

There are several examples of Fangio not playing nice with others when he was even mildly disgruntled.

He wanted to be in Philly, not Miami. He got what he wanted, and everyone in Philly ended up happy.
 
Nonsense. Remember when Fangio refused to adjust to what offenses were doing and kept Ramsey only on one side of the field?

Pepperidge Farm remembers.

Fangio was part of the problem in Miami.
I had forgotten that.

It appears that part of his "obedience training" required "absolute and unyielding obedience to commands, no matter what a player was thinking.

I was involved in obedience training with dogs and there were some trainers like that. I recall one trainer who was successful doing that with a Rottweiler. That dog was terrified of its trainer and was almost slavish in its obedience. Even the most minor "irregularities" were treated with severe punishment, i.e. being yelled at while being hit with the lead.

That kind of training was "counterproductive" with strong willed dogs - especially Basenjis, which are considered the most difficult dog to train in the world due to their inbred independence. Mine did OK in obedience, finishing 3rd in her class behind a Shetland Sheepdog and a Golden Retriever which are two breeds that do very well in obedience training.

I read a book by a man named Kohler, probably the best obedience trainer in the world. He trained all the animals for The Disney movies during the 1950's and that included several dogs and one cat. He focused on consistency and practiced routines prior to training.

He addressed dealing with the "real hoods" of the dog world with what he called the "kindness of an adequate correction". It involved hitting a dog "firmly" across its muzzle with a piece of garden hose that had a wooden stick inside as a stiffener. Going at the muzzle is what dogs in the wild to each other when trying to exert dominance, so he was "in affect" speaking their language".

The goal was to get the dogs undivided attention, not beat it to death. The trainers where I went to obedience class (the Queen City Obedience Club) in Cincinnati saw this technique used by Kholer himself during an exhibition he put on one evening in Columbus Ohio. At the end of the general training class there were two dogs brought in from the SPCA that were scheduled to "put down" the next day due to their uncontrolled aggression.

As I recall the two dogs were large breeds, a Rottweiler and a Great Dane. Kohler started by leashing them and then trying to get them to "heel". He used standard leash jerking techniques to get their attention and follow him. He had the hose I talked about available because of the probability he might need it.

Once the first dog started getting aggressive, i.e. snarling and snapping at him, he hit across its muzzle with some force, not just a tap. The dog quit its aggression and started paying attention to the trainer. The second dog required two "hits" before he began to pay attention to the trainer.

Based on the results he was able to achieve with those two dogs that evening, the SPCA took them off their "must be put to sleep" list.

Looking back to the Dolphins and how some of our past coaches delt with "difficult players", I recall Adam Gase delt with one of our RB's - AJ. There was a problem early in the year which was never really explained. Gase left AJ at home when the team went to the west coast for two games. When they came back all either of them would say was there had been a problem and that they had straightened it out. Things went pretty well for AJ the rest of that year.

I guess Teddy Roosevelt was right when he made his memorable comment: "talk softly but carry a big stick"! - LOL
 
There are several examples of Fangio not playing nice with others when he was even mildly disgruntled.

He wanted to be in Philly, not Miami. He got what he wanted, and everyone in Philly ended up happy.
And how did that work out?

The PLAYERS need to be self motivated and disciplined if a coach is going to succeed. Especially in this league. The coaches just don’t have any power to do anything other than lead the players to water. If they choose not to drink, there’s really not much any coach can do.

I’ve said this many times, but a HC is there to teach and motivate. He’s a manager of players… not their dad. And good players (employees) don’t need a manager to be an azzhat.

The Dolphins players, for 2 decades now, have been lackadaisical and more concerned with money than winning. Not all, but the majority. And when you have a majority like that the culture won’t change. And Grier has helped build that culture by bringing in guys like that.
 
I had forgotten that.

It appears that part of his "obedience training" required "absolute and unyielding obedience to commands, no matter what a player was thinking.

I was involved in obedience training with dogs and there were some trainers like that. I recall one trainer who was successful doing that with a Rottweiler. That dog was terrified of its trainer and was almost slavish in its obedience. Even the most minor "irregularities" were treated with severe punishment, i.e. being yelled at while being hit with the lead.

That kind of training was "counterproductive" with strong willed dogs - especially Basenjis, which are considered the most difficult dog to train in the world due to their inbred independence. Mine did OK in obedience, finishing 3rd in her class behind a Shetland Sheepdog and a Golden Retriever which are two breeds that do very well in obedience training.

I read a book by a man named Kohler, probably the best obedience trainer in the world. He trained all the animals for The Disney movies during the 1950's and that included several dogs and one cat. He focused on consistency and practiced routines prior to training.

He addressed dealing with the "real hoods" of the dog world with what he called the "kindness of an adequate correction". It involved hitting a dog "firmly" across its muzzle with a piece of garden hose that had a wooden stick inside as a stiffener. Going at the muzzle is what dogs in the wild to each other when trying to exert dominance, so he was "in affect" speaking their language".

The goal was to get the dogs undivided attention, not beat it to death. The trainers where I went to obedience class (the Queen City Obedience Club) in Cincinnati saw this technique used by Kholer himself during an exhibition he put on one evening in Columbus Ohio. At the end of the general training class there were two dogs brought in from the SPCA that were scheduled to "put down" the next day due to their uncontrolled aggression.

As I recall the two dogs were large breeds, a Rottweiler and a Great Dane. Kohler started by leashing them and then trying to get them to "heel". He used standard leash jerking techniques to get their attention and follow him. He had the hose I talked about available because of the probability he might need it.

Once the first dog started getting aggressive, i.e. snarling and snapping at him, he hit across its muzzle with some force, not just a tap. The dog quit its aggression and started paying attention to the trainer. The second dog required two "hits" before he began to pay attention to the trainer.

Based on the results he was able to achieve with those two dogs that evening, the SPCA took them off their "must be put to sleep" list.

Looking back to the Dolphins and how some of our past coaches delt with "difficult players", I recall Adam Gase delt with one of our RB's - AJ. There was a problem early in the year which was never really explained. Gase left AJ at home when the team went to the west coast for two games. When they came back all either of them would say was there had been a problem and that they had straightened it out. Things went pretty well for AJ the rest of that year.

I guess Teddy Roosevelt was right when he made his memorable comment: "talk softly but carry a big stick"! - LOL
Benching is definitely a motivator for some players. They are probably in the minority, however. Ajayi responded positively to his benching, but can the HC bench all the players that do wrong? Ajayi was the back-up at that time so he was replaceable. If McD benched Holland, Ramsey, Tyreek and all the other guys that seem to break rules, with this team, half the team would be not playing. HC’s can’t do that.
 
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