Mel Kiper- Jake Long is a Left Tackle

[Two Tacos]

As long as Ginn plays both as a returner and a receiver and is nothing more than average at both...he was and will be known as a reach with the 9th pick in the draft. You can not excell at both positions...either your great at one or the other.

Why? It's funny how many things can't be done, until they are done. Ginn looked good at both last year, and if he continues to improve like he was, he will be great at both.

 

[fishypete]

I'm not going to get in depth with this, seeing as the statement and the facts have been posted prior - but Ted Ginn was selected in the draft right where he was expected to go: the top 15, 2nd WR overall. He's not a reach, and never will be.

What the heck does where he was picked determine whether the player was a reach or not. If he never makes it as a receiver...regardless where he was picked...he wasn't worth it. How many receivers are picked in the middle or late rounds and play for 8-10 years...producing those years. When Ginn played at O.S. he never had great numbers...yet he was chosen over far better receivers that did...if thats not a reach...I'm sorry I don't know what is.
Ginn was the Dolphins selections for two reasons...one that he knew the headcoach and the other he has footspeed...not because he earned it by production. I won't say that Ginn can't become a decent receiver...but until then he wasn't worth the 9th pick in the draft.

 

[fishypete]

Why? It's funny how many things can't be done, until they are done. Ginn looked good at both last year, and if he continues to improve like he was, he will be great at both.

Whats funny is how Dolphin fans are so easily satisfied when they look at a players stats...take a good look at Ginns stats...you'll see they are very average...both as a returner and as a receiver.

 

[The Confessor]

But in who's opinion...is he a RT and only a RT? Let me remind everyone that Carey played guard and RT...while at Miami....yet he's the Dolphins LT.

Perfect. Thanks for making my arguement

Believe me when I say NOBODY was going to even think anybody was going to draft V-Carey at #1 :up:. Why would you draft another RT/LT project at #1?

 

[fishypete]

Perfect. Thanks for making my arguement

Believe me when I say NOBODY was going to even think anybody was going to draft V-Carey at #1 :up:. Why would you draft another RT/LT project at #1?

I would say the difference is that J. Long played at LT...while Carey didn't. Almost half the running yards acquired by Michigan came from Longs side...and Long plays like he's a defender...something I like in a offensive player.

 

[Two Tacos]

Whats funny is how Dolphin fans are so easily satisfied when they look at a players stats...take a good look at Ginns stats...you'll see they are very average...both as a returner and as a receiver.

I never mentioned stats. I was talking about his play on the field. He was the best WR we had last year (post CC trade), and the only one that demanded special attention from the defense. His and L. Bookers emergence later in the season were the only really bright spots in the passing game. He also did quite well returning the ball. I expect good things from him as both the offence and special teams improve as units.

Your statement that he couldn’t do both since to your mind no one else had done both is a poor argument. It’s like saying, “that Sammy Baugh kid needs to decide if he is a wingback or a tailback, what’s with this quarterback nonsense?â€

 

[dlockz]

You're wrong about the reach of Carey, you're wrong about the reach on Ginn. You've been presented with evidence proving you wrong for 4 years now, and the most knowledgable of the posters on this board have been proving you wrong for that amount of time.

Now that I think about it, I think I'll join them in just letting you go off and do your thing. Show 'em sparky! Stick with it long enough and you might revise history!

You have never proved me wrong on one thing. Have I been wrong on anything of course but I definately have a pretty good track record being right no matter how you want to spin it.

We were fooled out of a pick by Minnesota and you choose to believe something that is not true. Please let me go off and do my thing.

If you want to disprove my statememt thats fine but you have offered nothing in this conversation except to blankly state the most knowledgable of posters has proven me wrong. You have a very loose definition of proof.
You can repeat any statement you want over and over again and that still does not take the place of proof.

Just because something that is said is not popular does not take away from the possibility of truth. We had no reason to trade to move up one pick and take Vernon Carey because Minnesota was going to take Udeeze no matter what. Minnesota admitted that they fleeced us. The people on this board that pay attention know this part of the equation to be correct.

I have no doubt that both Mueller and Shefter possibly thought that Houston was going to take Ginn that still does not make it so. If you want to argue the Minnesota thing thats fine, you are wrong and that was put out a few years ago.As for the Houston thing there is no evidence either way that has been presented so how can I be wrong.

I love your statement on revising history. History is based on facts not some undisclosed source. History and rumors are quite differant.

Some people still believe that Washington had wooden teeth. I bet you think the us hockey team beat the russian team for the gold medal in 1980 also.

 

[Two Tacos]

You have never proved me wrong on one thing. Have I been wrong on anything of course but I definately have a pretty good track record being right no matter how you want to spin it.

We were fooled out of a pick by Minnesota and you choose to believe something that is not true. Please let me go off and do my thing.

If you want to disprove my statememt thats fine but you have offered nothing in this conversation except to blankly state the most knowledgable of posters has proven me wrong. You have a very loose definition of proof.
You can repeat any statement you want over and over again and that still does not take the place of proof.

Just because something that is said is not popular does not take away from the possibility of truth. We had no reason to trade to move up one pick and take Vernon Carey because Minnesota was going to take Udeeze no matter what. Minnesota admitted that they fleeced us. The people on this board that pay attention know this part of the equation to be correct.

I have no doubt that both Mueller and Shefter possibly thought that Houston was going to take Ginn that still does not make it so. If you want to argue the Minnesota thing thats fine, you are wrong and that was put out a few years ago.As for the Houston thing there is no evidence either way that has been presented so how can I be wrong.

I love your statement on revising history. History is based on facts not some undisclosed source. History and rumors are quite differant.

Some people still believe that Washington had wooden teeth. I bet you think the us hockey team beat the russian team for the gold medal in 1980 also.

Um no, Mike Tice and Minnesota maintained that there were offers and even had the specifics of the offer from the Pats. Billy B. denied that it happened, but double-talked his denial saying, “trade discussions are commonâ€. This is all really water under the bridge though, the Carey pick was several administrations ago…


http://www.boston.com/sports/articles/2004/04/25/coach_denies_he_had_interest_in_guard_carey/

 

[dlockz]

Um no, Mike Tice and Minnesota maintained that there were offers and even had the specifics of the offer from the Pats. Billy B. denied that it happened, but double-talked his denial saying, “trade discussions are commonâ€. This is all really water under the bridge though, the Carey pick was several administrations ago…


http://www.boston.com/sports/articles/2004/04/25/coach_denies_he_had_interest_in_guard_carey/http://www.boston.com/sports/articles/2004/04/25/coach_denies_he_had_interest_in_guard_carey/http://www.boston.com/sports/articles/2004/04/25/coach_denies_he_had_interest_in_guard_carey/http://www.boston.com/sports/articles/2004/04/25/coach_denies_he_had_interest_in_guard_carey/

Of course Mike Tice tryed to perpetrate that somebody was trading up, thats the game that all teams play, we just got played out of a 4th round pick.


That was of april 25th, later Minnesota acknowledged that there was no offer from NE to move up. In your own article Bill Belichek denied that he tried to move up. I dont see how you or the paper can imply that him saying trade discussions are common means he was lying.

Thats like saying I did not kill my wife, but people kill people all the time.

 

[The Confessor]

I would say the difference is that J. Long played at LT...while Carey didn't. Almost half the running yards acquired by Michigan came from Longs side...and Long plays like he's a defender...something I like in a offensive player.

And again...making my point

The fact that he is a GREAT tackle to run behind and not nessecerily a great pass-blocker, pretty much dictates him being a RT in the Pros..........

 

[dlockz]

Ok to get back on subject. I still think that Jake Long is a much better left tackle prospect than Vernon Carey was coming out of college and still a much better option there long term than Vernon Carey is now.

 

[The Confessor]

Ok to get back on subject. I still think that Jake Long is a much better left tackle prospect than Vernon Carey was coming out of college and still a much better option there long term than Vernon Carey is now.

Actually, that's not the arguement at all.

I wont argue that Jake is a better LT than Vernon Carey...and I wont argue that he is the best tackle coming out...but I WILL argue that he isnt the best LT coming out, and I will definately argue that he isnt worth the value of the #1 overall...

 

[lbmclean_sj]

Ok to get back on subject. I still think that Jake Long is a much better left tackle prospect than Vernon Carey was coming out of college and still a much better option there long term than Vernon Carey is now.

why would we base such a decision on being "much better than what we've got"?

every player is the first round is much better than we have

if we get lucky a much better LT prospect than Long and Carey might fall to us at #32

we need someone closer to Walter Jones/Jason Peters than Jake Long. someone with sweet feet who isn't necessarily the greatest run blocker in the world

 

[PeterNorth]

Ok to get back on subject. I still think that Jake Long is a much better left tackle prospect than Vernon Carey was coming out of college and still a much better option there long term than Vernon Carey is now.

Perhaps-still doesn't make Long worthy of being considered at #1, imo.

 

[dlockz]

Whether he is worth the first pick is a matter of perception. Alex smith and Ronnie Brown were not worthy of thier draft status but they were in a weak draft and they were positions of need.

I personally think that Dorsey is the only guy worthy of the top pick but alot of people say he does not fit scheme.

Long is just as good a first round pick as Long or Ryan. I personally hope we trade down.