Our "defense" isn't old!!!

[Finole]

You are wrong. Just look at your list. 4 out of the first 5 have either never played or else played insignifcantly.

I'm wrong?

Rod Wright was a stud at Texas. He will get significant playing time next year. Evans looks good, too. Are either of them Pro Bowlers? I don't know. I can't predict the future. Can you?

And I hate to burst your bubble, but Crowder AND Jason Allen both played a major role in our defense this year. (Guess that makes you wrong.)

Vickerson is the guy with a question mark. Why wasn't he starting this year? Of course, Big Daddy was a big reason Vickerson got limited playing time.

The rest of the players might not be old, but they aren't very good either. JT is a superstar. ZT is living off yesterday's accomplishments. Other than those two, there isn't a Pro Bowler among them.

Zach is living off yesterday's accomplishments?! Are you kidding me? He had 165 tackles and 3 sacks this year. Compare that to all the other LBs playing in the NFL right now. Go ahead. I'll wait...

On our Dline, the guys who have signifcantly contributed, are all over 30. In the NFL, thats considered old.

Roth is under 30. So I guess you were wrong again.

BTW, I did say we need to draft another DE in 2008. And do you honestly think that out of Wright, Evans, and Vickerson, not one of those three will end up starting for us?

Roth, Wright or Evans or both, a free agent, and a rookie in 2008. That's the future of our defensive line. Hopefully, one of them will prove to be as good or close to as good as JT.

The problem with the young guys is they haven't shown they are any good. Doesn't mean they aren't, I just can't put any stock in them making us a playoff team.

You're right about the young guys not showing us much. YET. Hopefully, they will step up over time. But then, of course, they will be old, and we'll have to replace them.

 

[SmokyFin]

JT is not old. He's 32 but he's playing as well as he's ever played. Barring injury there's no reason why he can't play at this level for at least another 3 seasons. Zach has plenty left in the tank also.

Roth is a future stud and Rod Wright could be a future all-pro. If we can get another quality linebacker like Briggs to take Spragan's spot and go alongside Zach and Crowder the LB corp will be incredible. Just keeping the secondary intact and not changing most of the personnel like Saban did after last season will make for improvement but we should look for a personnel upgrade there if available. The defense should be even better next season and if we find a good qb, whether it's Daunte or someone else, we'll be right in the playoff hunt next season.

 

[TampaFinsFan01]

No your credibility was lost in bold statements with little or no objective support. It took the final blow when you said JIM HASLETT should be our next coach.

Oh and I have not once bashed Saban for leaving. He did what anyone would do, go where the money is.

But you said he wouldnt' leave. And he did. I saw the writing on the wall and read it to you..and you still denied it.

And if you say this defense isn't old, then you have objectivity whatsoever.

 

[TampaFinsFan01]

Why they hell does age have to play into how long a player can play? If the player is still producing great then why cut them? Its just stupid to say a player can't play anymore just because he's old

No one said they can't play. They can play if they are old, perhaps. But don't say they aren't old by NFL standards. Thats not even debatable.

 

[Finole]

in case you didnt notice, zach thomas and jason taylor are basically our defense. without them our defense is horrible.

You're right. Why do the other 9 guys even bother taking the field?

jason taylor is the reason that the other defensive linemen were able to get so many sacks. he commands a double team which allows for every one else to be accounted for by one man. similar to strahan and dwight freeney. zach thomas is just plain special.

You're preaching to the choir. I know JT and ZT are great. But just because the two of them are old doesn't mean the other 9 guys are old, too.

Here are the other "old-timers" on our team: Traylor, Zgonina, Carter, Wilkinson, and Holliday. Only 3 of them are starters.

Traylor and Zgonina are going to have a tough time making the roster next year. That leaves Carter, Wilkinson, and Holliday. We'll probably lose at least one of those guys to free agency (due to cap space is what I'm hearing.)

That leaves JT, ZT, and one or two other "old-timers." JT is obviously still capable of playing at a very high level. So is Zach, but I worry about losing him to an injury. Carter, Wilkinson, and Holliday all have at least one or two more years in the tank.

That makes LB a necessity in the draft this year. And DL a necessity in the draft next year. All this talk about our "aging" defense is annoying when you realize how quickly the average age of the players on our defense can go from 28 years old to 26 years old.

 

[ShaBam]

I'm sick and tired of people saying our defense is old.

DT Rod Wright 7/31/84 Rookie 22 years old
S Jason Allen 7/5/83 Rookie 23 years old
DT Fred Evans 11/6/83 Rookie 23 years old
LB Channing Crowder 12/2/83 2 year vet 23 years old
DT Kevin Vickerson 1/8/83 2 year vet 24 years old
CB Travis Daniels 9/8/82 2 year vet 24 years old
DE Matt Roth 10/14/82 2 year vet 24 years old
S Yeremiah Bell 3/3/78 3 year vet 28 years old
CB Will Allen 8/5/78 6 year vet 28 years old
CB Andre' Goodman 8/11/78 5 year vet 28 years old
S Renaldo Hill 11/12/78 6 year vet 28 years old
DE David Bowens 7/3/77 7 year vet 29 years old
S Travares Tillman 10/8/77 6 year vet 29 years old
LB Donnie Spragan 7/12/76 5 year vet 30 years old
DT Vonnie Holliday 12/11/75 9 year vet 31 years old
DE Jason Taylor 9/1/74 9 year vet 32 years old
DT Dan Wilkinson 3/13/73 13 year vet 33 years old
LB Zach Thomas 9/1/73 11 year vet 33 years old
DE Kevin Carter 9/21/73 12 year vet 33 years old
DT Jeff Zgonina 5/24/70 14 year vet 36 years old
DT Keith Traylor 9/3/69 16 year vet 37 years old

The average age is 28 years old. That's a fairly young defense. If you don't count Zgonina and Traylor (who most likely won't be on the roster next year) the average age is 27 years old. 27 years old?! That's when a player is in his prime.

When people say our defense is old, what they mean is Zach Thomas and Jason Taylor are old. The age of your biggest playmakers characterizes your whole defense. Carter, Traylor and Big Daddy are also three of our biggest playmakers, and three of the oldest guys on our defense.

You don't hear people calling San Diego's defense old because Shawne Merriman is young. Yet NT Jamal Williams (9 year vet), LB Donnie Edwards (11 year vet), and LB Randall Godfrey (11 year vet) are all old.

Jason Taylor and Kevin Carter are old. But Matt Roth is young. We need another DE to compliment Roth for years to come. But we don't need to draft one this year. We can draft a DE in 2008.

Kevin Vickerson, Fred Evans, and Rod Wright are also young. At least one of them should be able to take over for Holliday or Traylor if and when one of them should go. There's definitely some YOUTH at the DT position.

Big Daddy will most likely take over Traylor's starting duties next year. He's four years younger than Traylor. We should be all right for another year.

Down the road, we'll need a younger DT to compliment Evans, Wright and (maybe) Vickerson. We might be able to pick up a quality DT thru free agency. (We had a lot of success with Traylor and Big Daddy.)

Zach Thomas is really old (for a linebacker). But Crowder is really young. Spragan and Pope provide a little depth. We need to draft a LB this year for sure.

The average age of our secondary is 26 years old. If we replace Goodman or Will Allen with a rookie, the average becomes 25 years old.

See what I mean? When you really break it down, our defense isn't really old. ZT and JT are over 30, but Crowder, Daniels, Jason Allen, Roth, Evans, Wright, and Vickerson are all younger than 25.

Bottom line: The media won't stop calling our defense old until ZT and JT are no longer on our roster. And that will be a sad day indeed.

Very good points.

 

[TampaFinsFan01]

I'm wrong?

Rod Wright was a stud at Texas. He will get significant playing time next year. Evans looks good, too. Are either of them Pro Bowlers? I don't know. I can't predict the future. Can you?

And I hate to burst your bubble, but Crowder AND Jason Allen both played a major role in our defense this year. (Guess that makes you wrong.)

Vickerson is the guy with a question mark. Why wasn't he starting this year? Of course, Big Daddy was a big reason Vickerson got limited playing time.



Zach is living off yesterday's accomplishments?! Are you kidding me? He had 165 tackles and 3 sacks this year. Compare that to all the other LBs playing in the NFL right now. Go ahead. I'll wait...



Roth is under 30. So I guess you were wrong again.

BTW, I did say we need to draft another DE in 2008. And do you honestly think that out of Wright, Evans, and Vickerson, not one of those three will end up starting for us?

Roth, Wright or Evans or both, a free agent, and a rookie in 2008. That's the future of our defensive line. Hopefully, one of them will prove to be as good or close to as good as JT.



You're right about the young guys not showing us much. YET. Hopefully, they will step up over time. But then, of course, they will be old, and we'll have to replace them.

First, I wasn't talking about Crowder. Try to keep up here.

In your opinion Jason Allen was significant this year? Boy you have low standards for significance.

Roth is under 30. Was he a starter? Oops. Guess I'm right again.

As for as Roth, Evans, Vickerson or Wright being stars....they might be. What are we doing, praying here? Bccause right now, none of them have shown superstar status.

Do we have young playes? Yes. Have many contributed significantly? I think no. You think yes. Lets just agree to disagree.

 

[Finole]

JT is not old. He's 32 but he's playing as well as he's ever played. Barring injury there's no reason why he can't play at this level for at least another 3 seasons.

Actually, if you're over 30, you're considered old in the NFL. If you're over 35, you're really old. So JT is old. But he is also great.

Zach has plenty left in the tank also.

Yes, but if we lost Zach to injury, we'd be screwed. How long can he continue to go an entire season? He has certainly exceeded my expectations thus far.

Zach'll turn 34 at the beginning of next season. The season after that, he'll be in the "really old" category.

Roth is a future stud and Rod Wright could be a future all-pro. If we can get another quality linebacker like Briggs to take Spragan's spot and go alongside Zach and Crowder the LB corp will be incredible. Just keeping the secondary intact and not changing most of the personnel like Saban did after last season will make for improvement but we should look for a personnel upgrade there if available. The defense should be even better next season and if we find a good qb, whether it's Daunte or someone else, we'll be right in the playoff hunt next season.

Roth and Wright (and/or Evans) are definitely the future of our defensive line. With the addition of a 1st rounder in 2008, we'll be in good shape.

 

[TexanPhinatic]

As for as Roth, Evans, Vickerson or Wright being stars....they might be. What are we doing, praying here? Bccause right now, none of them have shown superstar status.

Do we have young playes? Yes. Have many contributed significantly? I think no. You think yes. Lets just agree to disagree.

OH NOES!! Our rookies and second year guys arent littering the all star game? WHERES MY PANIC BUTTON!! Seriously, these guys were drafted mostly in the lowest rounds, no reason to think they would be lining up for superstardom right away. They are looking like solid contributors which is about what we want from them atm. JT should keep us his performance this year, and Zach will too if he can stay healthy.
The D needs some help, but most of them do in this league, we dont need to flip out and devote our entire draft to it, especially when the O was so horrible this season.

A few key additions will allow the D to keep performing at a high level until we shore up the O enough to devote some serious resources to the D.

 

[Finole]

First, I wasn't talking about Crowder. Try to keep up here.

Yes you were. You said...

You are wrong. Just look at your list. 4 out of the first 5 have either never played or else played insignifcantly.

Crowder was 4th on the list, so how were you NOT talking about him? Maybe you need to keep up here.

In your opinion Jason Allen was significant this year? Boy you have low standards for significance.

I was talking about significant playing time. Jason Allen was on special teams the entire season, and he was involved in every single defensive series. Ever heard of 3rd and long? Guess what happens in those situations...

Roth is under 30. Was he a starter? Oops. Guess I'm right again.

Roth was also in on every single defensive series. Go back and watch the games. His number is 98 in case you missed it.

As for as Roth, Evans, Vickerson or Wright being stars....they might be. What are we doing, praying here? Bccause right now, none of them have shown superstar status.

Do we have young playes? Yes. Have many contributed significantly? I think no. You think yes. Lets just agree to disagree.

Roth has shown flashes. Evans has shown flashes. And Wright was a stud in college. You know what's worse than a homer? Somebody who has no faith in their team at all?

Let's just agree that I'm right.

 

[Finole]

If you wouldnt take anything the Bills have over Jason "Jamarfletcher" Allen, then Buffalo is a very sad state of affairs. I doubt thats the case.

What did you say about Troy Polamalu his first season?

I'm just curious... How long do you give a player before writing them off?

 

[Kyndig]

I'm sick and tired of people saying our defense is old.

DT Rod Wright 7/31/84 Rookie 22 years old
S Jason Allen 7/5/83 Rookie 23 years old
DT Fred Evans 11/6/83 Rookie 23 years old
LB Channing Crowder 12/2/83 2 year vet 23 years old
DT Kevin Vickerson 1/8/83 2 year vet 24 years old
CB Travis Daniels 9/8/82 2 year vet 24 years old
DE Matt Roth 10/14/82 2 year vet 24 years old
S Yeremiah Bell 3/3/78 3 year vet 28 years old
CB Will Allen 8/5/78 6 year vet 28 years old
CB Andre' Goodman 8/11/78 5 year vet 28 years old
S Renaldo Hill 11/12/78 6 year vet 28 years old
DE David Bowens 7/3/77 7 year vet 29 years old
S Travares Tillman 10/8/77 6 year vet 29 years old
LB Donnie Spragan 7/12/76 5 year vet 30 years old
DT Vonnie Holliday 12/11/75 9 year vet 31 years old
DE Jason Taylor 9/1/74 9 year vet 32 years old
DT Dan Wilkinson 3/13/73 13 year vet 33 years old
LB Zach Thomas 9/1/73 11 year vet 33 years old
DE Kevin Carter 9/21/73 12 year vet 33 years old
DT Jeff Zgonina 5/24/70 14 year vet 36 years old
DT Keith Traylor 9/3/69 16 year vet 37 years old

The average age is 28 years old. That's a fairly young defense. If you don't count Zgonina and Traylor (who most likely won't be on the roster next year) the average age is 27 years old. 27 years old?! That's when a player is in his prime.

When people say our defense is old, what they mean is Zach Thomas and Jason Taylor are old. The age of your biggest playmakers characterizes your whole defense. Carter, Traylor and Big Daddy are also three of our biggest playmakers, and three of the oldest guys on our defense.

You don't hear people calling San Diego's defense old because Shawne Merriman is young. Yet NT Jamal Williams (9 year vet), LB Donnie Edwards (11 year vet), and LB Randall Godfrey (11 year vet) are all old.

Jason Taylor and Kevin Carter are old. But Matt Roth is young. We need another DE to compliment Roth for years to come. But we don't need to draft one this year. We can draft a DE in 2008.

Kevin Vickerson, Fred Evans, and Rod Wright are also young. At least one of them should be able to take over for Holliday or Traylor if and when one of them should go. There's definitely some YOUTH at the DT position.

Big Daddy will most likely take over Traylor's starting duties next year. He's four years younger than Traylor. We should be all right for another year.

Down the road, we'll need a younger DT to compliment Evans, Wright and (maybe) Vickerson. We might be able to pick up a quality DT thru free agency. (We had a lot of success with Traylor and Big Daddy.)

Zach Thomas is really old (for a linebacker). But Crowder is really young. Spragan and Pope provide a little depth. We need to draft a LB this year for sure.

The average age of our secondary is 26 years old. If we replace Goodman or Will Allen with a rookie, the average becomes 25 years old.

See what I mean? When you really break it down, our defense isn't really old. ZT and JT are over 30, but Crowder, Daniels, Jason Allen, Roth, Evans, Wright, and Vickerson are all younger than 25.

Bottom line: The media won't stop calling our defense old until ZT and JT are no longer on our roster. And that will be a sad day indeed.

In general, I agree, although Big Daddy will likely get cut and one of the young guys will hopefully step up in his place. It drives me crazy when I see people wanting to spend picks on our Dline in this draft in the early rounds. Our D line is one of the best in the league full stop and will be for awhile. Christ, spend the picks on the O-line! Or at QB or even Corner back or linebacker if you're going defense, but our Dline is solid. A rookie first round pick would have a hard time even getting starting time on the D-line. Sheesh...:shakeno:

 

[Section126]

Again...Did you watch any of our games this year? ZT made alot of tackles. Alot of them were ten yards downfield.

Let me put our credibility test to you this way...Which MLB would you rather have..Zach Thomas, who led the league in tackles or Ray Lewis, who didn't?

Getting my point now? I don't care how many tackles he had, those tackles surely didn't lead our defense to making the playoffs did it?

First of all you tell me that defensive rankings don't mean anything. yes they do. That is how we know the Ravens have a good defense. That is how we know that the bears have a good defense. That is how we know that the Dolphins have a good defense. Do you follow?

And YES...i saw the games....since you say that Zach was making tackles 10 yards down the field....how come the Dolphins defensive ranking is so good? Why do the Dolphins stop the run so well? Oh my god..it couldn't be their Middle Linebacker? No way right? Okay. Nevermind that he leads the league in tackles and was voted to the NFL Alumni all-pro team and the NFL ALL PRO team as well as the pro bowl.

By even mentioning Ray Lewis and how you would take Ray lewis over Zach right now..shows your lack of understanding or the fact that you just haven't seen ray Lewis play lately.

First of all..it would be nice if ray lewis wasn't leaving the field with his various assortment of injuries all the time. it would also be nice to see him play without cover from his Defensive Line...Oh wait..we have seen that already...i believed they called that one "the madden jinx".

Ray Lewis isn't Ray Lewis anymore. Zach still is Zach. That you would even make such a ludicrous statement tells me all i need to know. Hey...that Bruce Smith is still pretty good right? let's sign him up.

 

[PJack]

Actually, if you're over 30, you're considered old in the NFL. If you're over 35, you're really old. So JT is old. But he is also great.



Yes, but if we lost Zach to injury, we'd be screwed. How long can he continue to go an entire season? He has certainly exceeded my expectations thus far.

Zach'll turn 34 at the beginning of next season. The season after that, he'll be in the "really old" category.



Roth and Wright (and/or Evans) are definitely the future of our defensive line. With the addition of a 1st rounder in 2008, we'll be in good shape.

Totally agree. The young guys are almost all unproven. Crowder being the exception. Vickerson, Evans, Wright, Allen (please stop the Polamalu comparisons) all got little or no time to prove anything this year. There is nothing they have done that tells me that can play consistantly well. Crowder is the exception and will be good for years to come. Roth didn't play a ton but I think he will be a solid contributor. I don't see the future JT with him but I think he can do well playing opposite another great player ala JT.

I'm not saying that some of these guys won't help us but its tough to have confidence in anyone you really haven't seen play. It clear that Saban AND Capers didn't feel these guys was good enough to play ahead of the likes of Zgonia and Hill which you should be a little concerning.

 

[Section126]

Rankings don't mean a damn thing. What did the #3 defense get us? A 6-10 record. Please stop bringing up rankings of non playoff teams. Its meaningless.

No..that happened due to horrific Quarterback play...where have you been?