Quarterbacks In The Draft: Who Are The Candidates? | Page 12 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

Quarterbacks In The Draft: Who Are The Candidates?

I meant to bring up the experience. It's a valid point. Murray is just scratching the surface.

Bottom line to me is when Russell Wilson shows Hall of Fame skills at less than an inch taller, I don't know how a team that has no quarterback can just bomb Kyler Murray off their board (for all intents and purposes) and either take a quarterback who is worse-but-taller, or just not try to get better at the position because they're holding a candle for Tua Tagovailoa or Trevor Lawrence.

Both of those guys have families intent on seeing them get their degrees, which means we should be thinking much more about 2021 and 2022 than we should 2020 and 2021, and there will be 15 to 20 teams in the Tua Tagovailoa market by the time he comes out, same as Trevor Lawrence, which means a 50/50 chance that the team picking #1 overall has zero interest in trading. They'll just hang up the phone. And if the pick does happen to fall to a team that is open for business, you'll have no idea if the Dolphins are picking high enough to even enter into the conversation, because there's most definitely a point where you just pick too low and the team won't even want to hear your offer on a trade-up because they want someone elite and know they can't get that at your #12 overall pick, e.g.

Incredibly naive to think you're going to win that lottery, and/or to make asset decisions now based on that assumption.

What the hell is this team going to do, continue on with Ryan Tannehill with Kyler Murray sitting there at 15 overall? That's the great idea? Send the #15 overall pick to the Detroit Lions for an aged and inconsistent Matt Stafford and hope you don't get Jay Cutler'd again? Put ALL your eggs in Teddy Bridgewater's basket despite his demonstrable durability issues (not to mention the fact he's yet to ascend to any truly impressive level)? Buy Nick Foles and pray that he's actually a franchise guy, unlike those other years he played in the NFL when he clearly wasn't?
 
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ckparrothead said:
I meant to bring up the experience. It's a valid point. Murray is just scratching the surface.

Bottom line to me is when Russell Wilson shows Hall of Fame skills at less than an inch taller, I don't know how a team that has no quarterback can just bomb Kyler Murray off their board (for all intents and purposes) and either take a quarterback who is worse-but-taller, or just not try to get better at the position because they're holding a candle for Tua Tagovailoa or Trevor Lawrence.

Both of those guys have families intent on seeing them get their degrees, which means we should be thinking much more about 2021 and 2022 than we should 2020 and 2021, and there will be 15 to 20 teams in the Tua Tagovailoa market by the time he comes out, same as Trevor Lawrence, which means a 50/50 chance that the team picking #1 overall has zero interest in trading. They'll just hang up the phone. And if the pick does happen to fall to a team that is open for business, you'll have no idea if the Dolphins are picking high enough to even enter into the conversation, because there's most definitely a point where you just pick too low and the team won't even want to hear your offer on a trade-up because they want someone elite and know they can't get that at your #12 overall pick, e.g.

Incredibly naive to think you're going to win that lottery, and/or to make asset decisions now based on that assumption.

What the hell is this team going to do, continue on with Ryan Tannehill with Kyler Murray sitting there at 15 overall? That's the great idea? Send the #15 overall pick to the Detroit Lions for an aged and inconsistent Matt Stafford and hope you don't get Jay Cutler'd again? Put ALL your eggs in Teddy Bridgewater's basket despite his demonstrable durability issues (not to mention the fact he's yet to ascend to any truly impressive level)? Buy Nick Foles and pray that he's actually a franchise guy, unlike those other years he played in the NFL when he clearly wasn't?
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Well, Jalen Hurts just walked across the stage 2 weeks ago after 3 years on campus. Tua should be able to graduate next December also, although they're pursuing two different degrees. I'm just saying don't rule it out yet.

Next year's class will have better options than Murray in the 1st round in my opinion. I like Murray a lot, but I've always felt he should go play baseball. I suppose we just view Murray differently as a prospect. I couldn't make myself feel like I'd ever regret not drafting Murray with a top 15 pick - I'll easily have players available there that are better prospects at positions of need. I tend to side more on the questionable side than the elite side with Murray as an NFL quarterback.

Next year's class could have Tua and Fromm, along with Herbert, Jordan Love, K.J. Costello, and Khalil Tate as potential 1st rounders. I understand your point regarding Tannheill, believe me I get it. I'd just consider making a move for Haskins if he declares in terms of trading picks before I'd consider Murray at #15.

Of the options you put out there, I'd go with paying Foles. I actually said it in the draft forum a few years ago during his 27 TD/2 INT season that I felt he was better than Tannehill. Meaning, he's capable of playing at a level that exceeds Tannehill. Even though he can be a bit streaky like Tannehill, that's the route I'd go.
 
Jerrysanders said:
Brees, Baker and Wilson are all thickly built, that kid is slim and short, more importantly he doesn't throw with anticipation and he processes the game slow, no bueno for top 15 draft pick.
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I agree with a lot of that. I was disappointed in Murray tonight, in terms of how he projects to the NFL. He was so frantic out there. Happy eyes and happy feet. Often and especially early in the game it looked like Stidham...abandoning the design and taking off too soon. Absolutely he is lethal as a runner, creating opportunities everywhere. But that frantic nature combined with the tiny size really sticks him in a predicament when asked to make conventional throws in tight quarters from the pocket. I'd be exponentially more comfortable with his NFL prospects if he had a confident relaxed motion on that type of throw, able to vary the pace and loft to fit the situational requirement, instead of simply winging it time and again.

He wings it partially because of the lack of anticipation. Once he sees how the play has developed it's normally too late to do anything except a line drive.

Obviously I am referring to more often that not. Certainly there are throws from the pocket on third down when he can look relaxed, when his pre snap read unfolds perfectly. There was one slant left late in the game that fit. But the overriding tendency is to appear somewhat confused, if not bewildered. His facial expressions are not confidence inspiring, which is exactly the opposite of arrogance personified Baker Mayfield.

Two things regarding the difference between Mayfield last year and Murray this year:

* Comebacks are for suckers. They succeed so seldom I basically don't care about those examples anyway. A huge underdog like Oklahoma and Murray need to be ready and eager at the outset. The team didn't seem to understand that and Murray didn't seem to comprehend that Alabama would be different than the typical Big 12 foe. Oklahoma entered the game allowing 8.2 yards per pass attempt, which was last in the Big 12 (tough to accomplish) and is by far the worst pass defense ever to advance to this type of game. Second worse was Oklahoma last season at 7.5. No team allowing 7.1 or higher has ever won a playoff game or the prior BCS/Bowl Coalition championship games.

Baker Mayfield last season sensed the urgency and was at his best at the outset of the game against Georgia. They had a chance to put that game away despite the inept defense. Then once the physical nature of the game logically turned -- like Hagler/Hearns and a glass jaw -- there were strange moments in which Mayfield either decided not to make the aggressive throw, or the play calling got overly tentative. It seemed a combination. Wasted opportunity. Tonight's opportunity was overhyped. Once Oklahoma's deficit was so huge I felt like Murray should have received perhaps 75% credit for the scoring drives instead of full credit. That is not the defensive intensity he would have faced in a tight game. I would be considerably more convinced by Murray if he had seized advantage early.

* Secondly, this is not one of Saban's best defenses at Alabama. That enabled the comeback. The secondary is young. They have a payer who can be picked on in Surtain. That is very rare for a Saban defense. The pass defense allows 5.9 YPA compared to 5.4 with the more veteran secondary last season. Alabama once had an astonishing 4.3 season under Saban. Also, I'm convinced Tua plays a role. It is simply human nature to soften defensively when your offense is so dominant. The physical run oriented college teams in the '70s and '80s could still field awesome defenses even while scoring tons. But for more pass oriented teams they very seldom can maintain defensive ferocity, even if everything they do from a schematic and practice standpoint remains the same. It was always my annoyance with the Dolphins and AFC in general during the Marino era. The pass happy nature was like volunteering to be a cupcake conference compared to the NFC.

***

To finish I'll soften the criticism by pointing out that Murray can put up points in a flash given his skill set, and in the NFL only 24 to 28 points are required for an above average to top tier offense. Given current NFL defensive rules might be able to do that despite some of the concerns I have. It was difficult not to imagine that Ryan Tannehill would have curled into a ball and been sacked on that play that Murray turned into a scrambling deep ball touchdown in the third quarter.
 
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ckparrothead said:
I meant to bring up the experience. It's a valid point. Murray is just scratching the surface.

Bottom line to me is when Russell Wilson shows Hall of Fame skills at less than an inch taller, I don't know how a team that has no quarterback can just bomb Kyler Murray off their board (for all intents and purposes) and either take a quarterback who is worse-but-taller, or just not try to get better at the position because they're holding a candle for Tua Tagovailoa or Trevor Lawrence.

Both of those guys have families intent on seeing them get their degrees, which means we should be thinking much more about 2021 and 2022 than we should 2020 and 2021, and there will be 15 to 20 teams in the Tua Tagovailoa market by the time he comes out, same as Trevor Lawrence, which means a 50/50 chance that the team picking #1 overall has zero interest in trading. They'll just hang up the phone. And if the pick does happen to fall to a team that is open for business, you'll have no idea if the Dolphins are picking high enough to even enter into the conversation, because there's most definitely a point where you just pick too low and the team won't even want to hear your offer on a trade-up because they want someone elite and know they can't get that at your #12 overall pick, e.g.

Incredibly naive to think you're going to win that lottery, and/or to make asset decisions now based on that assumption.

What the hell is this team going to do, continue on with Ryan Tannehill with Kyler Murray sitting there at 15 overall? That's the great idea? Send the #15 overall pick to the Detroit Lions for an aged and inconsistent Matt Stafford and hope you don't get Jay Cutler'd again? Put ALL your eggs in Teddy Bridgewater's basket despite his demonstrable durability issues (not to mention the fact he's yet to ascend to any truly impressive level)? Buy Nick Foles and pray that he's actually a franchise guy, unlike those other years he played in the NFL when he clearly wasn't?
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Well, Jalen Hurts just walked across the stage 2 weeks ago after 3 years on campus. Tua should be able to graduate next December also, although they're pursuing two different degrees. I'm just saying don't rule it out yet.

Next year's class will have better options than Murray in the 1st round in my opinion. I like Murray a lot, but I've always felt he should go play baseball. I suppose we just view Murray differently as a prospect. I couldn't make myself feel like I'd ever regret not drafting Murray with a top 15 pick - I'll easily have players available there that are better prospects at positions of need. I tend to side more on the questionable side than the elite side with Murray as an NFL quarterback.

Next year's class could have Tua and Fromm, along with Herbert, Jordan Love, K.J. Costello, and Khalil Tate as potential 1st rounders. I understand your point regarding Tannheill, believe me I get it. I'd just consider making a move for Haskins if he declares in terms of trading picks before I'd consider Murray at #15.

Of the options you put out there, I'd go with paying Foles. I actually said it in the draft forum a few years ago during his 27 TD/2 INT season that I felt he was better than Tannehill. Meaning, he's capable of playing at a level that exceeds Tannehill. Even though he can be a bit streaky like Tannehill, that's the route I'd go. I don't subscribe to any of the Teddy Bridgewater brigade. ​
 
What other teams will be looking for a QB?

Jacksonville. Denver. Oakland. NYG. potentially Washington? First four will be picking ahead of us.
There will be basically three QBs to go after, Lock, Murray, and Haskins.

Denver and Washington are picking outside of top 10. Since Jax, Oakland, and NYG are picking top 10, they should probaby not pursue free agents ahead of the draft, and should draft a QB.
Our FO will have a tough decision to make in free agency gauging the risks, as well as on draft day whether to move up and dish out some picks.
 
Awsi Dooger said:
The team didn't seem to understand that and Murray didn't seem to comprehend that Alabama would be different than the typical Big 12 foe.
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Exactly. They didn't seem to understand that defenses are supposed to hit the quarterback. They hadn't experienced it in the Big-12....which is why his offensive lineman kept losing their minds over legal hits.

Play against the defenses of Mississippi State, Georgia, and Auburn back-to-back-to-back and see how your quarterback looks afterward.

Although you make a good point in regards to the rules in the NFL - you can't touch the QB in the NFL anymore without drawing a flag. Along with all the other rule changes that favor offenses, it's why you're seeing young quarterbacks succeed at an unprecedented rate in the NFL now. Quarterbacks that wouldn't have made it at all in the league 20 years ago. Quarterbacks can still be hit in college football.
 
I’d rather the phins keep drafting qbs in the first until they get their undoubted franchise guy even if that means drafting one in 2019 and 2020. It’s not like the other option is drafting a guaranteed good nfl player at another position. Seems they are just as likely to draft a Charles Harris or devante Parker as they are in drafting a Fitzpatrick or tunsil. So if I’m taking a risk either way I’ll take my chance with the qb position.

It interests me a lot less drafting that qb later in the draft. There’s less than a handful of qbs in the nfl that teams are looking at as their franchise qb who were taking later in the draft while the vast majority of franchise qbs were taken in the first.

I’ll like my odds better relying on the norm rather than the exception.
 
Well im sold on murray. His feel for the pocket and knowing exactly when to stay in vs leave i thought was exceptional. Bet he chooses football now.

He showed toughness he showed a exceptional arm for his size and he showed off script play making. That height means head high hits in the pocket are always gonna be a concern but yeah i can envision building an nfl offense around that kid.

It didnt start great he was one arm rag dolled to the ground and he threw i think it was his first pass in the shoe laces in the flats.

Had a ball tipped at the los where a defender barely got off the ground because of his release point from the pocket. Nothing you can do about that just gonna have to find throwing lanes.

Also i felt he had exceptional feel for where the sticks were. Just very natural.

I was worried i was gonna see a run first qb vs that defense but i didnt see that at all. He left when he should.

Top 15 yeah im in.
 
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TedSlimmJr said:
First season really playing any college football too. Baker was 23 years old with a significant amount of college football experience under his belt.

I'll probably end up having them graded similarly - but it's because I adore Kyler Murray and absolutely hate Baker Mayfield. Can't stand that prick. But he's a better quarterback than Murray and always will be.

There's some very real obstacles Murray will have to overcome as a quarterback if he chooses football. The size is an issue, the diminutive stature becomes more of an issue with his passing lanes when he gets in the red zone. It affects the trajectory and placement of his throws. Also, he's not yet an anticipatory passer. Top 50 is a reasonable assessment in my opinion, but anything top 25 is bit absurd.
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Excellent analysis on how his size can effect the short game, plus he's a see it open first type of passer.
 
Couple points on Murray—

Tough start- Q Williams terrorized him. wow Williams- freak combo of John Randle and JJ Watt.
But he adjusted - he competed. He didn’t take 10 sacks. He waited pre-snap reads- made decisions- pre-snap. Forced some but usually where he couldn’t get yet by an INT.
Hamstrung- no running game and men down. He got his team within 11. Def couldn’t get him a stop.

He doesn’t throw with anticipation as well as per say TUA. I mean Tua and Lawrence are on different level.
The height may come into play on short field and Redzone.
Can he survive games like that week to week idk. The NFL will be blitzing the **** out of him. Idk.
 
ckparrothead said:
I meant to bring up the experience. It's a valid point. Murray is just scratching the surface.

Bottom line to me is when Russell Wilson shows Hall of Fame skills at less than an inch taller, I don't know how a team that has no quarterback can just bomb Kyler Murray off their board (for all intents and purposes) and either take a quarterback who is worse-but-taller, or just not try to get better at the position because they're holding a candle for Tua Tagovailoa or Trevor Lawrence.

Both of those guys have families intent on seeing them get their degrees, which means we should be thinking much more about 2021 and 2022 than we should 2020 and 2021, and there will be 15 to 20 teams in the Tua Tagovailoa market by the time he comes out, same as Trevor Lawrence, which means a 50/50 chance that the team picking #1 overall has zero interest in trading. They'll just hang up the phone. And if the pick does happen to fall to a team that is open for business, you'll have no idea if the Dolphins are picking high enough to even enter into the conversation, because there's most definitely a point where you just pick too low and the team won't even want to hear your offer on a trade-up because they want someone elite and know they can't get that at your #12 overall pick, e.g.

Incredibly naive to think you're going to win that lottery, and/or to make asset decisions now based on that assumption.

What the hell is this team going to do, continue on with Ryan Tannehill with Kyler Murray sitting there at 15 overall? That's the great idea? Send the #15 overall pick to the Detroit Lions for an aged and inconsistent Matt Stafford and hope you don't get Jay Cutler'd again? Put ALL your eggs in Teddy Bridgewater's basket despite his demonstrable durability issues (not to mention the fact he's yet to ascend to any truly impressive level)? Buy Nick Foles and pray that he's actually a franchise guy, unlike those other years he played in the NFL when he clearly wasn't?
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I like Murrays skill set but damn his size reminds me of Pat white and we all know how that ended. Murray is so freaking tiny while Wilson and Mayfield are stockier guys.

And it concerns me that Murray isn't 100% all in on football.
 
I agree with the size in tbe red zone plays against him especially tight red but hes got the speed and the jitter bug cod to help offset some of that.

In terms of anticipation i consider back shoulder throws to be a indicator of that be it boundary or seam and i saw examples of it.

He throws the ball away from leverage well. Whats his experience level? I dont see why there isnt meat on the bone with reps for more anticipatory throws but the combination of the legs and the plus arm with the legs helps offset.

He will be on my target list for top 16 pick i know that and i wouldnt be lining up under center with him.
 
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