So... we kept Grier. Let's take a second look.

[Ferretsquig]

Here’s the problem with Grier. He doesn’t have a long term vision on how to build a team. What are his core principles when it comes to building a team? It just seems so random. It’s another reason why he should have been fired with Flores. He hired Flores. They needed to be on the same page with what type of team they wanted to be and if it failed they should be let go together.

What seems to be random to you? I think you can argue with the execution but the plan was very straightforward and logical to me. Gut the team, build from the inside out, find the franchise QB, and then add skill position players. I thought the free agent splurge was a year early but clearly it was part of the plan.

It fell apart because the players they selected to build the o-line didn't pan out and none of the major free agent signings aside from Ogbah worked out as expected.

I think its impossible to judge Grier on his draft record and take Flores completely out of the equation. Clearly they both had input and none of us will ever know if Holland was a pick by Grier or Flores or someone else. You can see the Flores fingerprints all over so many of the picks, from Wilkens in the first draft to Davis and Igbo in the second and Phillips in the third. Its hard for me to give Grier too much credit when all his team has shown is the ability to draft good defensive players while working with a defensive minded coach. It will be interesting to see what the next regime thinks of all these talented youngsters and who takes a leap forward or regresses under new management.

Unfortunately there's one constant and that's that drafts tend to look worse in hindsight after a new staff with a different philosophy takes over.

 

[jbyrd850]

Austin Jackson isn’t “beginning to look like a questionable pick”, he’s a bust. Noah I isn’t “not looking good”, he’s a bust. The only difference between Noah I and Austin Jackson is we’ve been forced to start Jackson because we have no depth on the oline.

Trading our pick instead of the 49ers to the Eagles was a bad move. Drafting Tua over Herbert was a very bad move.

Drafting Waddle was a good move but we gave up a lot and it’s not like he unearthed some hidden gem there, everyone knew Waddle was a stud, as was Chase, as was Pitts, as was Parsons.

He’s probably a middle of the pack GM. With the picks he amassed after the Tunsil trade I expected more. Herbert over Tua and Jonathan Taylor over Austin or Noah and this is a completely different team.

 

[rickd13]

What seems to be random to you? I think you can argue with the execution but the plan was very straightforward and logical to me. Gut the team, build from the inside out, find the franchise QB, and then add skill position players. I thought the free agent splurge was a year early but clearly it was part of the plan.

It fell apart because the players they selected to build the o-line didn't pan out and none of the major free agent signings aside from Ogbah worked out as expected.

I think its impossible to judge Grier on his draft record and take Flores completely out of the equation. Clearly they both had input and none of us will ever know if Holland was a pick by Grier or Flores or someone else. You can see the Flores fingerprints all over so many of the picks, from Wilkens in the first draft to Davis and Igbo in the second and Phillips in the third. Its hard for me to give Grier too much credit when all his team has shown is the ability to draft good defensive players while working with a defensive minded coach. It will be interesting to see what the next regime thinks of all these talented youngsters and who takes a leap forward or regresses under new management.

Unfortunately there's one constant and that's that drafts tend to look worse in hindsight after a new staff with a different philosophy takes over.

Here is what’s random about it. He gutted the team and then hired a defensive head coach knowing he would be drafting a young QB. Who was the guy on the staff who was going to develop that QB? He took three years into his rebuild to finally add a skill position guy to support his young QB. They have an offense with the worst offensive line in the league with no experience, a horrible running game with some of the worst running backs in the league, and one receiver worth a damn. Basically he hung his rookie QB out to dry just like they did with Tannehill when he was in Miami. The QB that he drafted he supposedly has doubts about and was ready to scrap his development for Watson. Now they fire the head coach that he hired because the offense is a mess and yet they are still interviewing defensive coordinators for the open head coaching position. The team is now in a position to have to thread a needle with the head coaching hire. Will the new guy want to change the defensive scheme? Will the players currently on the roster fit the new coach’s scheme? Will they force the new coach to keep a scheme he’s unfamiliar with? Does all this sound like a man with a plan?

 

[CheddarMantis]

What about Mayock as player acquisitions asst gm

 

[rickd13]

What about Mayock as player acquisitions asst gm

Sure, why not go get one of the few guys in the league that has actually done a worse job than Grier. That sounds about right for Miami.

 

[DOLFAN_51]

You are way nicer to Grier than I am.

Draft picks only — and not from this years draft because it’s too early too judge. 17 draft choices for the years ‘19 and ‘20.

Wilkins - Good pick. He had a very good year.
Deiter - Still sucks. Waste of a pick. Yes he started this year at center….And was not good by any stretch of the imagination.
Van Ginko - Solid pick. Has some good games….and some not so good.
Prince and Cox - Wasted draft picks
Gaskin - Below average running back but serviceable. Should never be a starter. Decent 3rd down back.
Tua - Still don’t know what we have here because he has no talent except for Waddle and Gesicki surrounding him
Jackson - BUST. Period.
Noah - BUST. Period.
Hunt - Started out the year slow. Got better as the year progressed…But I wouldn’t say he’s a better than average guard right now.
Davis - I like the pick. I expect good things out of him.
Jones - Decent pick. Solid. Not a pro-bowl type…But solid.
Kindley - BUST…Currently one happy meal away from being cut. Disappointing.
Stowbridge and Weaver - Waste of draft capital
Ferguson - Decent long snapper. Average at his position.
Perry - Nothing there. Gone.

So of the 17 draft choices 7 are good/decent. None are Pro-bowl caliber. NONE. That’s not good at all. Did any of them make an all rookie team? Except for Wilkins and maybe R. Davis… Would you say there’s a Great starter in that group? Tua possibly…. But that’s it.

To sum it up from those 2 drafts….We got mostly average starters from the picks that actually play. Except for possibly Wilkins, Davis and Tua, none of those picks will ever make a pro-bowl.

I don’t call that good at all.

I disagree. 10 contributors out of 17 picks is great. And this year was even better. People are losing their minds. lol

 

[DZimmer000]

I disagree. 10 contributors out of 17 picks is great. And this year was even better. People are losing their minds.

10 Contributors?? Who are they? I mean….Are you really counting Austin Jackson as a good draft pick? Iggy too? Come on man

 

[DOLFAN_51]

10 Contributors?? Who are they? I mean….Are you really counting Austin Jackson as a good draft pick? Iggy too? Come on man

Wilkins - Good pick. He had a very good year.
Deiter - Still sucks. Waste of a pick. Yes he started this year at center….And was not good by any stretch of the imagination.
Van Ginko - Solid pick. Has some good games….and some not so good.
Gaskin - Below average running back but serviceable. Should never be a starter. Decent 3rd down back.
Tua - Still don’t know what we have here because he has no talent except for Waddle and Gesicki surrounding him
Jackson - BUST. Period.
Hunt - Started out the year slow. Got better as the year progressed…But I wouldn’t say he’s a better than average guard right now.
Davis - I like the pick. I expect good things out of him.
Jones - Decent pick. Solid. Not a pro-bowl type…But solid.
Ferguson - Decent long snapper. Average at his position.

These are the 10 contributors. I get Jackson hasn't played well but he's proven to be depth at the minimum. And that's part of drafting. Plus, I'm convinced we have mishandled players on the OL. I want to see what they look like with some quality coaching. Hunt has been great though. No team has 5-8 home grown pro bowlers. That's a ridiculous standard. I can see 2 or 3 possible pro bowlers here. And 2 or 3 from the 2021 draft.

 

[DZimmer000]

These are the 10 contributors. I get Jackson hasn't played well but he's proven to be depth at the minimum. And that's part of drafting. Plus, I'm convinced we have mishandled players on the OL. I want to see what they look like with some quality coaching. Hunt has been great though. No team has 5-8 home grown pro bowlers. That's a ridiculous standard. I can see 2 or 3 possible pro bowlers here. And 2 or 3 from the 2021 draft.

I’m not asking for all pro-bowlers though. Just give me good players. Hunt was good at the end of the year….He was not great and his grades for the year are average. My point is he had 3 first round picks and 17 picks in 2 years. He didn’t pick 1 pro bowler. NOT ONE. That’s not good…That’s awful. Wilkins, Davis and Tua are the only good starters. That’s all. Van Ginko is a pass rush specialist. Gaskin is not starting material as can be witnessed by a street free agent taking his spot for the last 3 games. Like I said….3 Good starters. Everyone else is average at best….And in my opinion he should be fired just for Picking Jackson and Iggy in the first round alone.

One more question on Grier….Do you want to get into his free agency haul over the past 2 years? I don’t think so.

 

[DOLFAN_51]

I’m not asking for all pro-bowlers though. Just give me good players. Hunt was good at the end of the year….He was not great and his grades for the year are average. My point is he had 3 first round picks and 17 picks in 2 years. He didn’t pick 1 pro bowler. NOT ONE. That’s not good…That’s awful. Wilkins, Davis and Tua are the only good starters. That’s all. Van Ginko is a pass rush specialist. Gaskin is not starting material as can be witnessed by a street free agent taking his spot for the last 3 games. Like I said….3 Good starters. Everyone else is average at best….And in my opinion he should be fired just for Picking Jackson and Iggy in the first round alone.

One more question on Grier….Do you want to get into his free agency haul over the past 2 years? I don’t think so.

Wilkins deserved to be a pro bowler. so, there's that. There was no cohesiveness on the OL. Trust me, Hunt is very good. Iggy and Jackson were both what, 20yo? They were projects and our staff clearly doesn't coach guys up. That's the more disappointing part for me. I'm sick of watching NE bring in wrestlers or bottom barrel free agents and turning them into great players.

Didn't we have like 20mil. going into free agency? And the year before his acquisitions had us looking much better than we looked this year. I am frustrated by the player regression and lack of production from skill players too. But when I look at the roster objectively I can't blame Grier. We should have been better. And the drafts have been good.

 

[DZimmer000]

Wilkins deserved to be a pro bowler. so, there's that. There was no cohesiveness on the OL. Trust me, Hunt is very good. Iggy and Jackson were both what, 20yo? They were projects and our staff clearly doesn't coach guys up. That's the more disappointing part for me. I'm sick of watching NE bring in wrestlers or bottom barrel free agents and turning them into great players.

Didn't we have like 20mil. going into free agency? And the year before his acquisitions had us looking much better than we looked this year. I am frustrated by the player regression and lack of production from skill players too. But when I look at the roster objectively I can't blame Grier. We should have been better. And the drafts have been good.

I really disagree. The drafts haven’t been good. Objectively, they’ve been bad. Wilkins played well…. But did he deserve to be a pro bowler?? Debatable. Hunt was Very Good? No….He really wasn’t. Look at his grades from PFF. He was average. Our total haul of free agents was trash this year. Byron Jones and Ogbah are the only good free agents from the year before when he had millions to spend.

It comes down to the bottom line for me…. Has what Grier has done made us a playoff team? No.

He had a decent draft this year. Waddle, Phillips and Holland were good picks. That’s it. Eichenberg was terrible this year. Hunter Long? 1 catch. Etc.

Grier has run the draft for 6 years now? How about ‘17 draft…..Should we get into that?

Grier has to go. Period.

 

[Nugtron]

I’m not asking for all pro-bowlers though. Just give me good players. Hunt was good at the end of the year….He was not great and his grades for the year are average. My point is he had 3 first round picks and 17 picks in 2 years. He didn’t pick 1 pro bowler. NOT ONE. That’s not good…That’s awful. Wilkins, Davis and Tua are the only good starters. That’s all. Van Ginko is a pass rush specialist. Gaskin is not starting material as can be witnessed by a street free agent taking his spot for the last 3 games. Like I said….3 Good starters. Everyone else is average at best….And in my opinion he should be fired just for Picking Jackson and Iggy in the first round alone.

One more question on Grier….Do you want to get into his free agency haul over the past 2 years? I don’t think so.

Using Probowls as an argument to judge a players performance insta-kills that arguement.

Not to mention 2 years doesn't usually give a player enough commercial time to get votes, let alone develop.

 

[DZimmer000]

Using Probowls as an argument to judge a players performance insta-kills that arguement.

How about quality starters….. Oh…..Same argument.

 

[MAC13FINS]

I've said it once and i'll say it again. The problem in Miami is a coaching problem NOT a talent problem. Grier has drafted quite well but our inability to hire a competent HC has really held this team back. Just look at Waddle. Yeah, he's been excellent and has many receptions but we've turned him into a possession Receiver and far from what he was at Alabama, That's just one example. If we were to hire a decent HC who would bring a half decent Oline coach with him, i'm sure we would see a much better Jackson, Hunt and Eichenberg amongst many others...

 

[Goonies]

You admit players were worthy or all pro votes but still want to use the lack of all pro votes as a measuring stick

It has always seemed like a lot of the Grier criticism came down to a couple of things. Many Finheavenites were either a) Upset because he didn't draft specific players/positions that they, personally, wanted or b) They wanted the entire rookie squad to play like seasoned veterans right out of the box. So I decided to take another look at the previous three draft classes.

2019
Round 1 (13): DI Christian Wilkins, Clemson (Just had an excellent season. Top 4 in tackles. Increasing pass rush presence)
Round 3 (78): G Michael Deiter, Wisconsin (Mediocre starting Center)
Round 5 (151): LB Andrew Van Ginkel, Wisconsin (a flat steal)
Round 6 (202): OT Isaiah Prince, Ohio State (currently with the Bengals, and starting)
Round 7 (233): FB Chandler Cox, Auburn (out of the NFL)
Round 7 (234): RB Myles Gaskin, Washington (sometime starter, better 3rd down back)
UDFAs: Nik Needham, Patrick Laird, Jonathan Ledbetter, Chris Myarick, and Preston Williams (Needham starting nickel back, the others have played some)

In retrospect, this was not a bad draft at all. Wilkins has become one of the best DTs in the league, Dieter is a league average sort of player as a third rounder, and Van Ginkle and Needham have wildly outplayed their draft positions).

2020

• Round 1, Pick No. 5: Tua Tagavailoa, QB, Alabama (Sure, I would have taken Herbert, but Tua hasn't been awful. This isn't a Haskins pick)
• Round 1, Pick No. 18: Austin Jackson, OT, USC (Beginning to look like a questionable pick, although he did play better in '20 than '21)
• Round 1, Pick No. 30: Noah Igbinoghene, CB, Auburn (not looking good)
• Round 2, Pick No. 39: Robert Hunt, G, Louisiana-Lafayette (extremely solid pick)
• Round 2, Pick No. 56: Raekwon Davis, DT, Alabama (was a star in '20, took a step back this year. Still looks solid)
• Round 3, Pick No. 70: Brandon Jones, S, Texas (third safety so far, probably starts next year)
• Round 4, Pick No. 111: Solomon Kindley, G, Georgia (not looking good)
• Round 5, Pick No. 154: Jason Strowbridge, DE, North Carolina (currently a free agent)
• Round 5, Pick No. 164: Curtis Weaver, OLB, Boise State (practice squad Browns)
• Round 6, Pick No. 185: Blake Ferguson, LS, LSU (starting on special teams. Solid)
• Round 7, Pick No. 246: Malcolm Perry, WR, Navy (practice squad Patriots)
• UDFAs: Not much. Benito Jones and Kirk Merritt are still around, but neither looks like a future player.

This draft will always be defined by Tua. If he succeeds next year, this is a decent draft, despite the Igbinoghene reach. Jackson had a decent season, followed by a bad one, and it's unknown what a better Offensive Line coach will be able to get out of him. Hunt has been really good, and Jones and Davis have been solid. Some people bitched because of the Ferguson pick, but he's still with us and contributing-- unlike Strowbridge, Weaver, and Perry. This draft was one of those, hit, then miss drafts, but in the long run... it's ALL about the decision to draft Tua over Herbert.

2021

• 6th Overall Selection (R1-P6): Jaylen Waddle, WR, Alabama
• 18th Overall Selection (R1-P18): Jaelan Phillips, EDGE, Miami
• 36th Overall Selection (R2-P4, from Houston): Jevon Holland, S, Oregon
• 42nd Overall Selection (R2-P10, from N.Y. Giants): Liam Eichenberg, OT, Notre Dame
• 81st Overall Selection (R3-P18): Hunter Long, TE, Boston College
• 231st Overall Selection (R7-P3, from Houston): Larnel Coleman, OT, Massachusetts
• 244th Overall Selection (R7-P16, from Washington): Gerrid Doaks, RB, Cincinnati

Whew... this one was a home run, just one of the best drafts that we've EVER had! The top three all look like future Pro Bowl players. Eichenberg was bounced all over the place and survived despite playing the only position that no draft tout thought he was suited for (LT). Next year, expect him to start on the right side, next to Hunt. The Long pick looks like a miss, but only because like Iggy in 2019, we didn't really need him. He may end up being a player, but we have not seen anything yet. Coleman went to IR after a decent camp and may replace Davis at swing tackle next year. Doaks must not have shown much... as bad as our rushing attack was, we never once thought about using him.

So... you and I may disagree over this or that player, but I really don't see how anyone can consider these three draft classes as an abject failure. Many of our best players came directly from Chris Grier's drafts. When you consider the rest of what he's done-- getting us so far under the cap and generally getting decent returns on his trades.... I just don't see where all of the anti-Grier sentiment comes from. Even the Free Agent signings have proven reasonably safe... only the Byron Jones signing was for longer than two years and the Ogbah signing has been a godsend. Stealing Seiler from the Ravens and then signing him to a below market contract was a gift. Butler, Riley... several others have provided valuable downs as back up players.

Why have we underwhelmed? The Offensive Line. ...and it may be argued that the problem here is that our coaching was really poor-- not really his fault.

I loved when Grier drafted hunter long and gave us 7 TE on the roster. That was a great decision. The vision Grier brings is inspiring.