The most important aspect of a franchise IS SCOUTING/DRAFT DEPARTMENT, ABOVE ALL!! Coaches DO NOT bring playoff success!! | Page 3 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

The most important aspect of a franchise IS SCOUTING/DRAFT DEPARTMENT, ABOVE ALL!! Coaches DO NOT bring playoff success!!

FanSince93 said:
Seahawks/Pete Carroll - won a SB in 2014. What has he done since then? If he's such a great coach, why did the Seahawks only win 7 games this year? Why did he get elimianted in the 1st round of the playoffs last year? Why isn't he achieving more success? COACHES DONT BRING PLAYOFF SUCCESS. PLAYERS DO!!

Steelers/Mike Tomlin - He got the 1 super bowl in 2009. That's 13 years ago. Hasn't won anything since. This season, MIKE TOMLIN won THE SAME AMOUNT OF GAMES AS BRIAN FLORES... 9 games this year. NO DIFFERENCE IN THE AMOUNT OF GAMES WON, BETWEEN A SUPER BOWL "HOF" COACH IN MIKE TOMLIN, AND A BRIAN FLORES.

Buccaneers/Bruce Arians - He finally wins a Super bowl. Why? Because the Buccaneers hit on their draft picks and talent evaluations. They drafted Chris Godwin. They drafted Mike Evans. They picked up Shaq Barrett. The team was loaded with talent, that it was attractive enough to lure the missing piece - a QB. Suddenly they are SB Champs. What was the main cause? Not Tom Brady. But the Buccaneers DRAFT/SCOUTS!

Patriots/Bellichick - Brady leaves NE, Pats are stuck with Newton, and Bellichick misses the playoffs. Then he drafts a competent rookie QB and is now back in the playoffs as a Wild card, but will likely be eliminated quickly.


THE COACHES DO NOT WIN GAMES. ONLY PLAYERS DO. THE MOST IMPORTANT ASPECT OF A FRANCHISE IS THE SCOUTING/DRAFT DEPARTMENT. PERIOD. It is they who hit on draft picks, who make your team good, who hit on a QB, hit on a CB, hit on DE's, who pick Justin Herbet over Tua..... etc... and suddenly almost any random coach starts winning with great players.

The problem with the Miami Dolphins was NOT Brian Flores. He actually is a very good defensive mind, and we put up a winning season. He was actually AGAINST picking Tua!

We just need MORE talent on the field.

COACHES DO NOT MAGICALLY BRING PLAYOFF SUCCESS. NO COACHING CHANGE WILL FIX ANYTHING. Brian Flores was fine.

What we need is a COMPLETE BOWEL MOVEMENT OF THE SCOUTING/DRAFT DEPARTMENT. I don't care how long they been there. Bring in young, 30 yr old ex college players or something.
Click to expand...
I see your argument, but disagree. Your view of the world is too simplistic. Football is a team sport. All parts are important, down to the water boys. See Adam Sandler, Water Boy. Quality H2O is important in a game. Every piece of the puzzle is important, but you are correct that the Miami scouts have failed Miami. Coaches matter because when coaches choose to run up the middle on third and long, where you don't have road graders at your disposal, and a power back behind those maulers, then you have a stupid coach. If you have mentally challenged scouts and coaches, then you are really effed.
 
I wouldn't go so far as saying that coaches don't matter. In fact, I'm not sure how we could go about proving they don't matter except to examine rosters with little turnover that see coaching changes.

However, I think there's a lot of merit to saying that GMs make a bigger difference. Talent absolutely matters in the NFL. All the success stories tend to begin with a GM drafting or signing key players. Year after year, some coaches go from having mediocre seasons to having great seasons, and usually the difference is the talent.

I wouldn't say that coaches don't make a difference, though. Just like in MLB, the coach can cause a clubhouse to turn on him or to play upset. The difference between NFL and MLB, though, is that MLB totally recognizes how the GM is a more important role than the manager. However, football is more of a team sport than baseball, and the plays being called have an impact on the field. So we know that coaching matters to some extent because a simplified playbook is going to get you destroyed in this league, and running good plays that a team knows really well is going to lead to success. So...

I figure the GM matters like 60% to the coaching mattering 40%. I don't know that I would go as far as 70/30, although I'm tempted. A talented team can overcome mediocre coaching, but a great coach cannot overcome an absence of talent. The times that I think I have seen great coaching overcome a mediocre roster (Tony Sparano's first year), it seems to coincide with an easy schedule and the roster not being nearly as devoid of talent as the media made it seem. Plus, a great coach can be really crafty in his use of what talent he does have, but the end result is till a round 1 stomping. So in the end, it didn't even matter.... lol
 
Last edited:
AgentXof12 said:
I wouldn't go so far as saying that coaches don't matter. In fact, I'm not sure how we could go about proving they don't matter except to examine rosters with little turnover that see coaching changes.

However, I think there's a lot of merit to saying that GMs make a bigger difference. Talent absolutely matters in the NFL. All the success stories tend to begin with a GM drafting or signing key players. Year after year, some coaches go from having mediocre seasons to having great seasons, and usually the difference is the talent.

I wouldn't say that coaches don't make a difference, though. Just like in MLB, the coach can cause a clubhouse to turn on him or to play upset. The difference between NFL and MLB, though, is that MLB totally recognizes how the GM is a more important role than the manager. However, football is more of a team sport than baseball, and the plays being called have an impact on the field. So we know that coaching matters to some extent because a simplified playbook is going to get you destroyed in this league, and running good plays that a team knows really well is going to lead to success. So...

I figure the GM matters like 60% to the coaching mattering 40%. I don't know that I would go as far as 70/30.
Click to expand...

We already saw that experiment in 1995 with the Dallas Cowboys

Jimmy Johnson, an AMAZING talent evaluator by himself, built those Dallas Cowboy super bowl teams.

He then leaves the team.

Barry Switzer comes on, and wins a super bowl too, with Jimmy's team.


Jimmy didn't win anything with the Dolphins because he didn't have the loaded roster he had in Dallas. He built a GREAT defense, but we missed on some big picks. For example, Jimmy made a HUGE mistake on passing on Randy Moss in the draft, because he had faith in Yatil Green recovering from that injury.

Randy Moss went on to become one of the most dominant WR's in NFL history, up there with Jerry Rice.... and Yatil Green never played a game in the NFL.

Imagine Dan Marino throwing to a young Randy Moss in the late 1990s? The Dolphins would have been the most explosive offense in NFL history.
 
Last edited:
I will say this, I think a lot of times a talented team may win - in spite of the coach.

However, I believe a good coach will elevate his talent to a next level with hard work, preparations and strategy. Football is a very complex game, to say coaching means little is pretty ridiculous
 
KingHydra said:
We now know Flores demanded we draft Iggy over Taylor. What's your defense on that?
Click to expand...
My defense is that coaches need to STFU and let the scouts/draft department do their jobs.

UNLESS that coach is ALSO a great talent evaluator, like a Jimmy Johnson.
 
FanSince93 said:
Yes, coaches have something to contribute and manage, but they are NOT the reason a team wins or loses. It's the players on the roster. Period. And who decides the fates of a franchise? The scouts/draft/talent evaluators. They are the ones that fill the roster with pro bowlers that carry you to a SB. Coaches do NOT bring playoff success.

Seahawks/Pete Carroll - won a SB in 2014. What has he done since then? If he's such a great coach, why did the Seahawks only win 7 games this year? Why did he get elimianted in the 1st round of the playoffs last year? Why isn't he achieving more success? COACHES DONT BRING PLAYOFF SUCCESS. PLAYERS DO!!

Steelers/Mike Tomlin - He got the 1 super bowl in 2009. That's 13 years ago. Hasn't won anything since. This season, MIKE TOMLIN won THE SAME AMOUNT OF GAMES AS BRIAN FLORES... 9 games this year. NO DIFFERENCE IN THE AMOUNT OF GAMES WON, BETWEEN A SUPER BOWL "HOF" COACH IN MIKE TOMLIN, AND A BRIAN FLORES.

Buccaneers/Bruce Arians - He finally wins a Super bowl. Why? Because the Buccaneers hit on their draft picks and talent evaluations. They drafted Chris Godwin. They drafted Mike Evans. Drafted Devin White. Drafted Winfield Jr. And on and on. They picked up an unwanted Shaq Barrett as an incredible FA signing. The team was loaded with talent, that it was attractive enough to lure the missing piece - a QB. Suddenly they are SB Champs. What was the main cause? Not Tom Brady. But the Buccaneers DRAFT/SCOUTS!

Patriots/Bellichick - Brady leaves NE, Pats are stuck with Newton, and Bellichick misses the playoffs. Then he drafts a competent rookie QB and is now back in the playoffs as a Wild card, but will likely be eliminated quickly.


THE COACHES DO NOT WIN GAMES. ONLY PLAYERS DO. THE MOST IMPORTANT ASPECT OF A FRANCHISE IS THE SCOUTING/DRAFT DEPARTMENT. PERIOD. It is they who hit on draft picks, it is the talent evaluators who find pro bowlers in the free agent scrap heap, who make your team good, who hit on a QB, hit on a CB, hit on DE's, who pick Justin Herbet over Tua..... etc... and suddenly almost any random coach starts winning with great players.

The problem with the Miami Dolphins was NOT Brian Flores. He actually is a very good defensive mind, and we put up a winning season. He was actually AGAINST picking Tua!

We just need MORE talent on the field.

COACHES DO NOT MAGICALLY BRING PLAYOFF SUCCESS. NO COACHING CHANGE WILL FIX ANYTHING. Brian Flores was fine.

What we need is a COMPLETE BOWEL MOVEMENT OF THE SCOUTING/DRAFT DEPARTMENT. I don't care how long they been there. Bring in young, 30 yr old ex college players or something.
Click to expand...
I agree that selecting top talent is extremely important but I have often seen teams with better talent lose because they didn’t have a good coaching staff.

I would have preferred Ross hire a new GM and scouting department too but he made the decision he made because he feels that Grier has done a good job selecting the talent over the past three years. He stated that during his interview yesterday.

So while we may or not agree with the decision made to fire Flores and keep Grier. He owns the team and therefore he has every right to hire and fire anyone he wants to in HIS organization.

Until he starts asking for input from the fans or putting it to a vote, we are just voices in the wind that he doesn’t listen to when it comes to running his team. Live with it or find another team to root for. Those are the only options any fan really has.
 
superphin said:
George Wilson had 4 HOF players and won 3 games in 1969. Don Shula the very next year won 10 games.
Click to expand...
Nice job ignoring the new great players the Dolphins acquired for the 1970 season with Don Shula.


The Dolphins trading for pro bowl, HOF WR Paul Warfield, to acquire him from the Cleveland Browns???

The Dolphins drafting pro bowl safety Jake Scott??

The Dolphins drafting future honor roll Tight End, Jim Mandich???


The roster was injected with a lot of great talent for the 1970 season with Don Shula. Once again proving my point.
 
Last edited:
FanSince93 said:
Nice job ignoring the new great players the Dolphins acquired for the 1970 season with Don Shula.

The Dolphins trading for pro bowl, HOF WR Paul Warfield, to acquire him from the Cleveland Browns???
Click to expand...
So 4 HOF players wasn't enough to win more than 3 games? It was the 5th HOF player that really took them over the edge.
 
Last edited:
superphin said:
So 4 HOF players wasn't enough to win more than 3 games? It was the 5th HOF player that really took them over the edge.
Click to expand...
The Dolphins drafting pro bowl safety Jake Scott??

The Dolphins drafting future honor roll Tight End, Jim Mandich???
 
FanSince93 said:
The Dolphins drafting pro bowl safety Jake Scott??

The Dolphins drafting future honor roll Tight End, Jim Mandich???
Click to expand...
Mandich had 1 catch for 3 yards in 1970 but I'm sure his presence is what made the difference.

If you think Rich Kotite would have won 11 games with the Pats in 2001 and held the greatest offense ever to 17 points than I'm happy for you.

If you think George Wilson was going to win 10 games with the additions of Jake Scott and Paul Warfield then cool man. If you think George Wilson was on his way to winning 347 games, and 2 SB wins then more power to you.
 
FanSince93 said:
Okay but why are you tunnel visioned on the phrase "nothing to do with it"

Coaches have something to do with it, but it's completely overblown, and playing musical chairs with the coaches won't fix it and bring you playoff success. The only thing that can do that is the draft/scouting department hitting on pro bowlers on both sides of the ball.
Click to expand...
It's way more important than you are making it. Teams don't win it all with bum coaches.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom