The Rosen effect..........

[EJay]

Well......the point your refusing to see ......and now want shut up and removed...is I dont want Josh Rosen shipped off to another team just to become yet another success story from the worlds biggest farm system....The Miami Dolphins.

I'm not refusing to see anything, except for several pages of off-topic nonsense about an average QB no longer on the team. As @fishfanmiami advised, please keep to the topic at hand.

If you want to discuss and argue the merits of that player, there's another thread for it. I didn't ask for the content here to be removed, but rather moved to the appropriate topic where myself and others won't be bothered to read pages of hyperbole in a thread clearly devoted to Josh Rosen.

Considering that you created this thread topic, I'd think you'd be thankful rather than defiant. But you seem hellbent on expounding about and showing videos of an off-topic QB. That tells the rest of us all we need to know.

$50 says another defiant response to this reply is forthcoming. But I'll still hold out hope you finally get the point.

Now...back to our regularly scheduled program... The Rosen Effect.

As you were.

 

[CedarPhin]

Rosen is a John Beck-esque talent. Kid has potential, but got she’ll-shocked pretty early on...I guess JR isn’t 85 like Beck was when he started, but it is concerning.

 

[EJay]

Rosen is a John Beck-esque talent. Kid has potential, but got she’ll-shocked pretty early on...I guess JR isn’t 85 like Beck was when he started, but it is concerning.

Residing in CA and also being an avid HS football fan, I saw Rosen play at St. John Bosco going back to his SOPH year. That team had so much freaking talent that it was hard to discern how good Rosen was or might be.

His freshman year at UCLA showed promise. But IMO, he just never developed into the QB his talent suggested he could. Certainly wasn't bad. But just nowhere near as good as most hoped.

I think the guy still has a chance. But it just might take longer than anyone would hope. Might take a few more years of what's happened to him already to shock him into it. He may indeed have the drive and work ethic. But it just doesn't appear like it from the outside looking in.

If Rosen does have 'it', then the Dolphins drafting TUA should be all the motivation he needs. It could also be all the motivation (and excuse) he needs to pack it in and just go through the motions.

We'll all find out soon enough what type of player he really is.

 

[ATL_PHIN_FAN]

Residing in CA and also being an avid HS football fan, I saw Rosen play at St. John Bosco going back to his SOPH year. That team had so much freaking talent that it was hard to discern how good Rosen was or might be.

His freshman year at UCLA showed promise. But IMO, he just never developed into the QB his talent suggested he could. Certainly wasn't bad. But just nowhere near as good as most hoped.

I think the guy still has a chance. But it just might take longer than anyone would hope. Might take a few more years of what's happened to him already to shock him into it. He may indeed have the drive and work ethic. But it just doesn't appear like it from the outside looking in.

If Rosen does have 'it', then the Dolphins drafting TUA should be all the motivation he needs. It could also be all the motivation (and excuse) he needs to pack it in and just go through the motions.

We'll all find out soon enough what type of player he really is.

Fact remains: No one has seen Rosen behind a competent NFL OL. No one has seen Rosen with an average, or better, NFL running game. Most fans here have only seen Rosen in a couple games in Miami, where his supporting cast was NFL historically bad. Where, many of the starting players were signed to the team off of the street or from practice squads only weeks before.

Fact remains: Rosen has not been traded or cut. Why? I suspect that means Flores feels he is, at minimum, still useful to the team. In Flores' world, that must mean Rosen is still progressing as a young QB?

Fact remains: We have not seen Rosen in action since October of last season. No one here can say, for sure, that Rosen is done as a Dolphin. I'm not saying that Rosen will emerge as star, or anything like that. But, he's only 23, with unarguably excellent passing skills. So, if he's still on the team by the beginning of training camp, he must be a far, far better, and progressing, young QB talent than many here want to give him credit for.

 

[EJay]

Fact remains: No one has seen Rosen behind a competent NFL OL. No one has seen Rosen with an average, or better, NFL running game. Most fans here have only seen Rosen in a couple games in Miami, where his supporting cast was NFL historically bad. Where, many of the starting players were signed to the team off of the street or from practice squads only weeks before.

Fact remains: Rosen has not been traded or cut. Why? I suspect that means Flores feels he is, at minimum, still useful to the team. In Flores world, that must mean Rosen is still progressing as a young QB?

Fact remains: We have not seen Rosen in action since October of last season. No one here can say, for sure, that Rosen is done as a Dolphin. I'm not saying that Rosen will emerge as star, or anything like that. But, he's only 23, with unarguably excellent passing skills. So, if he's still on the team by the beginning of training camp, he must be a far, far better, and progressing, young QB talent than many here want to give him credit for.

Totally agree with you. I still believe he's got a chance. And as I stated earlier in the thread, Rosen stepping up and rising to the challenge means great things for this franchise. So I'm rooting for him.

That said, I have seen him play many times from his SOPH season in HS til now. While I fully realize how talented he is, I'm just not convinced he has 'it'. That's all.

But not having 'it' now doesn't mean it can't be forced out of him through stability and competition. We'll see.

 

[mwestberry]

I'm all in on giving Rosen the time needed to develop ... as mentioned, he is STILL on the roster and we all should know Flo doesn't fool around once it's decided (for whatever reason) you don't fit ...

 

[mwestberry]

I stopped looking at Rosen as a starter and now just looking at him as a QB trying to make the team .... we will need a serviceable back up once we establish a starter ...

Some are still in disagreement with the trade for Rosen and their opinion may be a bit jaded and I get it ...

But when Flo came over the Fins needed a QB and IMO the staff found a QB with promise and youth ... no qualms with that here .....

I hope we can get a glimpse of his play, after nearly a year on the bench, before the season starts ....

 

[Kamelion4291]

Fact remains: No one has seen Rosen behind a competent NFL OL. No one has seen Rosen with an average, or better, NFL running game. Most fans here have only seen Rosen in a couple games in Miami, where his supporting cast was NFL historically bad. Where, many of the starting players were signed to the team off of the street or from practice squads only weeks before.

Fact remains: Rosen has not been traded or cut. Why? I suspect that means Flores feels he is, at minimum, still useful to the team. In Flores world, that must mean Rosen is still progressing as a young QB?

Fact remains: We have not seen Rosen in action since October of last season. No one here can say, for sure, that Rosen is done as a Dolphin. I'm not saying that Rosen will emerge as star, or anything like that. But, he's only 23, with unarguably excellent passing skills. So, if he's still on the team by the beginning of training camp, he must be a far, far better, and progressing, young QB talent than many here want to give him credit for.

Fitzpatrick took over for that historically bad team and finished the year 5-4 with a win in New England which we haven't done since the wildcat game, so really all I hear out of this are excuses, the same excuses that Rosen constantly gets for why his play is below average.

Have we seen Rosen behind a competent offensive line or good NFL running game? Nope. You are correct there, but just because your line is bad doesn't mean it's bad EVERY play. Contrary to popular belief, even the worst offensive lines statistically hold their blocks more than they don't. So, you can ignore all of the plays where there were pressure (admittedly there were a lot in Rosen's career) and only look at the plays where he had time in the pocket. Those stats exist, by the way. Want to know where Rosen ranks against the rest of the NFL in plays where he had time to throw? Dead last.

So if the hope is that one day you can build a line in front of him to see what he can "really" do, all you're doing is removing extra pressure plays and increasing the real Rosen plays... where he's also terrible. This is ignoring how Rosen's slow trigger and processing speed will always put increased pressure on the line to hold up in the first place therefore requiring extra resources to build an above average line just to get to an "average" pass blocking metric net result.

One last thing here. Rosen has never had a single game in his 16 game starting career where he hit NFL average in QB rating. His BEST game couldn't even make it to average. Every QB who started for the 0-16 Browns and 0-16 Lions (there were 5-6 of them, I forget the exact number) had a better than NFL average game throughout those seasons. Every single one of them. Stop using surrounding talent as an excuse.

 

[fansinceGWilson]

Fitzpatrick took over for that historically bad team and finished the year 5-4 with a win in New England which we haven't done since the wildcat game, so really all I hear out of this are excuses, the same excuses that Rosen constantly gets for why his play is below average.

Have we seen Rosen behind a competent offensive line or good NFL running game? Nope. You are correct there, but just because your line is bad doesn't mean it's bad EVERY play. Contrary to popular belief, even the worst offensive lines statistically hold their blocks more than they don't. So, you can ignore all of the plays where there were pressure (admittedly there were a lot in Rosen's career) and only look at the plays where he had time in the pocket. Those stats exist, by the way. Want to know where Rosen ranks against the rest of the NFL in plays where he had time to throw? Dead last.

So if the hope is that one day you can build a line in front of him to see what he can "really" do, all you're doing is removing extra pressure plays and increasing the real Rosen plays... where he's also terrible. This is ignoring how Rosen's slow trigger and processing speed will always put increased pressure on the line to hold up in the first place therefore requiring extra resources to build an above average line just to get to an "average" pass blocking metric net result.

One last thing here. Rosen has never had a single game in his 16 game starting career where he hit NFL average in QB rating. His BEST game couldn't even make it to average. Every QB who started for the 0-16 Browns and 0-16 Lions (there were 5-6 of them, I forget the exact number) had a better than NFL average game throughout those seasons. Every single one of them. Stop using surrounding talent as an excuse.

By you're logic, Marino failed to win a SB because he wasn't good enough. Surrounding talent (and coaching) DOES matter. And I'm not a Rosen fan. He's shown little. No guarantee he'll be more than a career backup. Given that, I'd like to see him behind a good OL. I want to see his 'best.'

 

[ATL_PHIN_FAN]

Fitzpatrick took over for that historically bad team and finished the year 5-4 with a win in New England which we haven't done since the wildcat game, so really all I hear out of this are excuses, the same excuses that Rosen constantly gets for why his play is below average.

Have we seen Rosen behind a competent offensive line or good NFL running game? Nope. You are correct there, but just because your line is bad doesn't mean it's bad EVERY play. Contrary to popular belief, even the worst offensive lines statistically hold their blocks more than they don't. So, you can ignore all of the plays where there were pressure (admittedly there were a lot in Rosen's career) and only look at the plays where he had time in the pocket. Those stats exist, by the way. Want to know where Rosen ranks against the rest of the NFL in plays where he had time to throw? Dead last.

So if the hope is that one day you can build a line in front of him to see what he can "really" do, all you're doing is removing extra pressure plays and increasing the real Rosen plays... where he's also terrible. This is ignoring how Rosen's slow trigger and processing speed will always put increased pressure on the line to hold up in the first place therefore requiring extra resources to build an above average line just to get to an "average" pass blocking metric net result.

One last thing here. Rosen has never had a single game in his 16 game starting career where he hit NFL average in QB rating. His BEST game couldn't even make it to average. Every QB who started for the 0-16 Browns and 0-16 Lions (there were 5-6 of them, I forget the exact number) had a better than NFL average game throughout those seasons. Every single one of them. Stop using surrounding talent as an excuse.

Fact remains: He's not been cut or traded when the time for doing that has long past. Something is not adding up here between your evaluation and our coachs' evaluations of Rosen. I'm curious what that tells you? Are you suggesting our coaches can't evaluate young QB prospects effectively? Maybe our coaches are actually taking into account the circumstances Rosen's experienced during past NFL opportunities to start, while you do not? Is that wise of you, or any effective evaluator?

As for excuses, no one is asking for them. But several of us are certainly looking at the big picture, rather than only at a few stats.

IMO, while it's true that stats matter a lot, they don't mean everything. I certainly would prefer a coaching staff that considers all sides of an issue. Not just the low hanging fruit as some seem to want to do.

 

[lurking]

There’s some in this thread that have no idea how this game is played.

 

[rent this space]

To me, the lack of surrounding talent argument lost credibility when Fitzpatrick came in under the same exact circumstances and completely out-performed him.

 

[Pachyderm_Wave]

To me, the lack of surrounding talent argument lost credibility when Fitzpatrick came in under the same exact circumstances and completely out-performed him.

It's why I've never liked this argument. When it's a kid like Tua, the anti-Tua crowd will always quickly point out that he's going to a league where the players are bigger, stronger, faster and "everybody is a NFL player". Every player in the NFL is just so much better than anything these kids ever saw in college.

However, when it's a kid like Rosen or John Beck or Tannehill the argument becomes they had no talent around them.


These are the only two arguments fans have resorted to since the beginning of time. They aren't able to see the contradiction just like they aren't able to see who can play and who can't.

 

[rent this space]

It's why I've never liked this argument. When it's a kid like Tua, the anti-Tua crowd will always quickly point out that he's going to a league where the players are bigger, stronger, faster and "everybody is a NFL player". Every player in the NFL is just so much better than anything these kids ever saw in college.

However, when it's a kid like Rosen or John Beck or Tannehill the argument becomes they had no talent around them.


These are the only two arguments fans have resorted to since the beginning of time. They aren't able to see the contradiction just like they aren't able to see who can play and who can't.

It doesn't matter if you're throwing to Larry Fitzgerald or Allen Hurns, you should be able to hit them in stride

 

[Kamelion4291]

By you're logic, Marino failed to win a SB because he wasn't good enough. Surrounding talent (and coaching) DOES matter. And I'm not a Rosen fan. He's shown little. No guarantee he'll be more than a career backup. Given that, I'd like to see him behind a good OL. I want to see his 'best.'

I'm not blaming Rosen for losing. That's a team statistic. I'm blaming him for playing poorly. That's a big difference and I'm not quite sure why you're trying to go in this particular direction with the conversation because I never implied anything like this.