What the knock on Herbert?

[Dolphinator530]

The comparison is how they will look if he sent to the wolves his first year - that is all

Fromm needs to sit he isn’t the Saviour of a franchise at this point - Haskins was rushed regardless of the team in front of him

I can honestly say I misread your first post. Yes i agree he needs to take the KC approach, get him behind a pro to learn from spend the year working out flaws in mechanics and footwork. Have him grasp the playbook and build the team so he is handed a reasonable chance to succeed. Imagine...

Parker
Williams going into year 3 and a full year post injury
Gesicki going into year 4
CeeDeeLamb/Ruggs/Higgins going into year two

and an O-line that WILL be worked on

Whoever is drafted PLEASE PLEASE sit a year and be handed the keys to THAT car.

 

[SCOTTY]

I can honestly say I misread your first post. Yes i agree he needs to take the KC approach, get him behind a pro to learn from spend the year working out flaws in mechanics and footwork. Have him grasp the playbook and build the team so he is handed a reasonable chance to succeed. Imagine...

Parker
Williams going into year 3 and a full year post injury
Gesicki going into year 4
CeeDeeLamb/Ruggs/Higgins going into year two

and an O-line that WILL be worked on

Whoever is drafted PLEASE PLEASE sit a year and be handed the keys to THAT car.

If we draft qb in the 1st I don't think we have the luxury to sit him. If we do however sit him I want Rosen to start. I can't do another whole season of Fitz

 

[Dolphinator530]

If we draft qb in the 1st I don't think we have the luxury to sit him. If we do however sit him I want Rosen to start. I can't do another whole season of Fitz

Sit him and build the team, use the assets in 2021 to grab more players to round our the roster. Expectations are going to grow fast if we draft a guy, be smart and let him get his feet under him. I dont think any QB will succeed if thrown to the wolves too quick. Tua uninjured maybe but now he is the biggest wildcard in draft history if he declares.

 

[SCOTTY]

Sit him and build the team, use the assets in 2021 to grab more players to round our the roster. Expectations are going to grow fast if we draft a guy, be smart and let him get his feet under him. I dont think any QB will succeed if thrown to the wolves too quick. Tua uninjured maybe but now he is the biggest wildcard in draft history if he declares.

I'll say this. If we draft qb in the first and we sit him a year. Then there is no doubt Flo is here for the long haul, there is definite direction for the team and the entire organization is on the same page. So all those poster arguments will need to be put to bed.

 

[Geordie]

I came here for a Herbert chat, not yet another squirrel hands Fromm love in. Herbert is way more intriguing than a guy that's rode his Oline his entire college career. To answer the original question, I think the question marks as we go through the draft process will be focused on "Can I trust him to run the 80% of my play book, we know he has an arm from the gods and can make those 20% plays that few QBs can but can he execute the simple stuff on a consistent basis". Herbert will go top 10 in my view, I wouldn't be shock as he gets prodded and probed through the drafting process that he ends up in the top 5.

 

[Dolphinator530]

I came here for a Herbert chat, not yet another squirrel hands Fromm love in. Herbert is way more intriguing than a guy that's rode his Oline his entire college career. To answer the original question, I think the question marks as we go through the draft process will be focused on "Can I trust him to run the 80% of my play book, we know he has an arm from the gods and can make those 20% plays that few QBs can but can he execute the simple stuff on a consistent basis". Herbert will go top 10 in my view, I wouldn't be shock as he gets prodded and probed through the drafting process that he ends up in the top 5.

I think he has the tools and an arm that can drive the ball in Foxboro in January which is going to be needed but dont come in here and talk about offensive lines, Oregon has 2 guys who are first round talent on that line. And clearly the best line in the Pac 12 by a mile. Herbert's numbers are a reflection of his time to throw as well.

He has improved his physical weaknesses, but has he grown mentally? Cant play in this league on pure physical talent otherwise Jeff George might be the best of all time. And I want my QB to know 100% of the playbook, the ad-libbing stuff is cool but its how Qbs get hurt. Being arm arrogant is not a great quality, accuracy and ball placement first. Rather have a guy who can lead receivers and get them in a position to get YAC rather than a guy who like Kaep throws 100mph fastballs into triple coverage.

Do you think Herbert can make all the levels of throws and learn to take some off? Do you think his pre snap will evolve and get up to speed quickly in the NFL?

Gotta go to tape because an interview can only show you but so much, I hope he kills the process and makes it hard for evaluators. This might be the most intriguing off season in a long time period let alone for the Fins.

 

[Geordie]

I think he has the tools and an arm that can drive the ball in Foxboro in January which is going to be needed but dont come in here and talk about offensive lines, Oregon has 2 guys who are first round talent on that line. And clearly the best line in the Pac 12 by a mile. Herbert's numbers are a reflection of his time to throw as well.

He has improved his physical weaknesses, but has he grown mentally? Cant play in this league on pure physical talent otherwise Jeff George might be the best of all time. And I want my QB to know 100% of the playbook, the ad-libbing stuff is cool but its how Qbs get hurt. Being arm arrogant is not a great quality, accuracy and ball placement first. Rather have a guy who can lead receivers and get them in a position to get YAC rather than a guy who like Kaep throws 100mph fastballs into triple coverage.

Do you think Herbert can make all the levels of throws and learn to take some off? Do you think his pre snap will evolve and get up to speed quickly in the NFL?

Gotta go to tape because an interview can only show you but so much, I hope he kills the process and makes it hard for evaluators. This might be the most intriguing off season in a long time period let alone for the Fins.

No doubting Herbert's line, but personally I don't have nearly as many problems evaluating him over the other guy, who's never pressured. Anyway to answer your questions, I do think he can make all the throws, I do however think he needs to be coached in order to properly determine which throw to make, as CK pointed out in his dissertation above, he can't always be trusted on this score. Our last QB (he who shall not be named) had a problem early on pre snap and never truly developed that area of his game, despite being a very smart guy (which Herbert is also BTW 4.00 GPA - being English I have no idea what that means but I understand it's smart), so that's a big question mark. Summing up really as you said, he's got the physical talent to play the position, no one can doubt that but does he have the mental side of the game figured out, if not now will he ever ? He's not the slam dunk Burrow or Tua are but he is someone that a lot of egocentric coaches will love to get their hands on.

 

[Dolphinator530]

No doubting Herbert's line, but personally I don't have nearly as many problems evaluating him over the other guy, who's never pressured. Anyway to answer your questions, I do think he can make all the throws, I do however think he needs to be coached in order to properly determine which throw to make, as CK pointed out in his dissertation above, he can't always be trusted on this score. Our last QB (he who shall not be named) had a problem early on pre snap and never truly developed that area of his game, despite being a very smart guy (which Herbert is also BTW 4.00 GPA - being English I have no idea what that means but I understand it's smart), so that's a big question mark. Summing up really as you said, he's got the physical talent to play the position, no one can doubt that but does he have the mental side of the game figured out, if not now will he ever ? He's not the slam dunk Burrow or Tua are but he is someone that a lot of egocentric coaches will love to get their hands on.

On your point, how many of these guys have been "coached up"? I mean at 13 these guys are talked up by coaches who just want a bigger salary because we pay **** to high school teachers/coaches, so they just let them play however they want.

Then are told by a college coach they are the greatest thing ever and will be a bonafide 1st rounder if they come to school with them. Then they get to the NFL, and coaches and their ego think they make 6 years of coddling go away and turn the guy into the perfect specimen. When they have been enabled to do whatever it is they want on the field for years. Hard to take an ego alpha and say well you suck at this lets make you great. I worked in a different pro sport and saw supremely talented guys fade away because they "knew" they were smarter than coaches and their talent would take them to the Majors.

As the great Ray Lewis said, talent is god given but skill is earned and worked for. I want a QB who wants to be the greatest skilled QB ever.

Coach-ability is going to be key because from the initial evidence of this staff is they get after it and push you hard to get your true talent to come out.

How will they analyze that element and who will come out on top in that regard?

 

[Blake the great]

I guess my biggest knock on Herbert is that he doesnt really wow me consistently. Herbert has a great O line and usually makes throws with clean pockets. He has a big arm but so does a lot of NFL QB's including back ups and number of draft busts. When I watch herbert play, im just left being slightly impressed as opposed to watching Burrow or Tua, those guys make big plays, and throw consistently with great anticipation and accuracy. Fromm impresses me as well but I just get the feeling of watching him play of Game manager type QB. maybe its the Georgia offense, but I saw a stat a while back that GA usually struggles when fromm has to throw the ball more than like 30 or 35 times in game, dont know the exact number. although Fromm does throw the best back shoulder ball I have ever seen at the college level. I think all the QB's mentioned above have really good intangibles and leadership but If I had to rank them on leadership I think Fromm would be #1 in that category.

 

[Dolphinator530]

I guess my biggest knock on Herbert is that he doesnt really wow me consistently. Herbert has a great O line and usually makes throws with clean pockets. He has a big arm but so does a lot of NFL QB's including back ups and number of draft busts. When I watch herbert play, im just left being slightly impressed as opposed to watching Burrow or Tua, those guys make big plays, and throw consistently with great anticipation and accuracy. Fromm impresses me as well but I just get the feeling of watching him play of Game manager type QB. maybe its the Georgia offense, but I saw a stat a while back that GA usually struggles when fromm has to throw the ball more than like 30 or 35 times in game, dont know the exact number. although Fromm does throw the best back shoulder ball I have ever seen at the college level. I think all the QB's mentioned above have really good intangibles and leadership but If I had to rank them on leadership I think Fromm would be #1 in that category.

Good point on Herbert. I saw a video recently ; I think it was CBS that said "he is on fire the last two games but otherwise you are watching and go Meh i mean he is good but where is his moment when will he take over and rise up?"

With your UGA stat; UGA has one win when Fromm throws over 30 times but I think that the team isn't constructed to be a pass happy O, maybe one receiver (Pickens who is a true freshman) and NO TE is an NFL guy at this time. Tua and Burrow throw to NFL guys left and right. But both of those guys have made throws that translate beyond the talent of the person they are throwing too.

Every QB has "moments" that makes you go HOLY COW how did he do that or WOW thats a big time player right there. I honestly dont watch Herbert enough to know if he has one...please let me know if they are there. i watched the Arizona game and his TDs were to wide open receivers.

Burrow - has like 5 runs and throws in each of the Bama, FL, Texas and Auburn games that do that. That run vs Bama to seal the game on their last drive was like WOW.

Tua - has about 4 throws a game that you say that. One that comes to mind is the Ole Miss game where he side stepped and faked out a free rushing DB and on the run dumped one over the LB zone into a pocket hitting the guy in the numbers. Even the announcers were like OH COME ON

Fromm - has a couple as well, the flat footed throw to end the FL game with guys hanging on him comes to mind, he made like 5 great 3rd down throws vs ND including one that didnt get caught but you went WOW when you saw the throw. Believe he was scrambling to his right and from the 30 threw a perfect ball on the run to the corner on a rope and the WR just dropped it. And the back shoulder to Cager in that game was like a 1 square foot window to fit it in

As far as physical tools go Herbert is #1 he has the size, athleticism and arm but what other traits does our FO and coaching staff covet? And who leads those categories?

 

[Rev Kev]

I don't know. At least Lamar Jackson can read a defense. The lack of that trait could hold Hurts back. I do like him. With the right coaching staff, and building the offense around him as you suggest, could work for a limited time like with Kap. Not sure it's long-term???

Do you think Lamar has learned to a read in school or has been a quick study in NFL either way Hurts Is an athlete and I wouldn’t start him next season

I don’t like any of these QBs coming out starting next season - Tua was ready but not gonna play out that way

 

[SCOTTY]

Do you think Lamar has learned to a read in school or has been a quick study in NFL either way Hurts Is an athlete and I wouldn’t start him next season

I don’t like any of these QBs coming out starting next season - Tua was ready but not gonna play out that way

You get though that's not how the NFL works anymore. Any qb that goes 1st rd is going to be expected to start.
5 qbs will go 1st round this draft.
Burrow, Herbert and Fromm are 1st round locks. Tua is now up in air but before injury was a lock. Some team will trade back into 1st for hurt.
All but hurt will be expected starter.

 

[SF Dolphin Fan]

Do you think Lamar has learned to a read in school or has been a quick study in NFL either way Hurts Is an athlete and I wouldn’t start him next season

I don’t like any of these QBs coming out starting next season - Tua was ready but not gonna play out that way

I think the team will still have interest in Tua depending on his rehab/diagnosis.

Besides Tua, I would think Herbert and Burrow would be quarterbacks the team likes.

Beyond that, it's just hard to know.

 

[TheWozz]

You get though that's not how the NFL works anymore. Any qb that goes 1st rd is going to be expected to start.
5 qbs will go 1st round this draft.
Burrow, Herbert and Fromm are 1st round locks. Tua is now up in air but before injury was a lock. Some team will trade back into 1st for hurt.
All but hurt will be expected starter.

I honestly believe that we could sit a first round QB for at least a significant part of the season. There seems to be buy in at all levels that patience and adherence to the plan is needed to rebuild...if coaches and FO believe that the best bet for long term success is by sitting him most of the year, I can see it.

 

[Dogbone34]

I wanted Miami to come away with Tua or Herbert. Real concerns with Tua now.

I'm still on board with Herbert. He's smart, he can move and he can fire it.