Where does Dan Marino rank amongst all quarterbacks that have played in the NFL?

[tay0365]

In postseason play the "great" NE D's have given up more than the crappy Indy D's. Brady has repeatedly rescued his defense from blowing postseason games, Manning has neve done that and Manning has had elite weapons around him on offense while most of Brady's career(outsode of '07 & '09) he has had average offensive talent around him.

Well, we are talking about the 3 SBs wins of Brady, and in those 3 years, the Patriots had much better defensive play in the post season then the Colts. In 07 & 09 he did not win a SB, did he?

A QB cannot do it on his own but the best elevate their play in the biggest spots, NE wouldn't have a single SB title right now if not for Brady. They wouldn't even have been a playoff team in 2001 if Bledsoe was the QB.

How many have the Pats won since Vinitieri left....give him some credit, both were very important to thier team.

On Marino, I have him in my top 5 even though he never won a SB b/c I feel he elevated his teams to even being postseason teams. He had average talent around him most of his career. Put him on Indy in the 00s and he has at least 3 SB titles.

I agree.

 

[nyjunc]

Well, we are talking about the 3 SBs wins of Brady, and in those 3 years, the Patriots had much better defensive play in the post season. In 07 & 09 he did not win a SB, did he?




How many have the Pats won since Vinitieri left....give him some credit, both were very important to thier team.



I agree.

In his 3 SB winning seasons the Pats D allowed 17.2 PPG

In Manning's lone SB winning year his D allowed 12.8 PPG
In Manning's SB losing season his D allowed 14.7 PPG

In '07 Brady led an 80 yd drive int he final minutes to score a TD and take a 4 pt lead w/ 2 1/2 to play before the Pats D blew it.
In '09 Brady stunk but so did the Pats D as they got blasted by Baltimore.

Brady had Vinatieri for 5 seasons and won 3 SBs, Manning has had him for 6 seasons and won 1 SB. If it was about the K wouldn't Peyton have won more by now? AV was very important obviously, he's the best clutch K in the game but Brady put him in those positions to win games.

 

[tay0365]

In his 3 SB winning seasons the Pats D allowed 17.2 PPG

In Manning's lone SB winning year his D allowed 12.8 PPG
In Manning's SB losing season his D allowed 14.7 PPG

In '07 Brady led an 80 yd drive int he final minutes to score a TD and take a 4 pt lead w/ 2 1/2 to play before the Pats D blew it.
In '09 Brady stunk but so did the Pats D as they got blasted by Baltimore.

I am not comparing the Colts SB year to the Pats. I said in my original post that, if not for his defense and kicker, Brady does not win a SB. Both won their SB with the help of a good defense, and a good kicker. You can't compare defenses of different years, because there are too many things that happen in a year that make it and easier the normal year, and tougher then normal year, like how many teams were playoff teams in your division, how tough was your schedule, were there injuries?

Dan Marino has a good defense, he wins at least 1 SB, and I personally think it way more, because he was an offense all by himself.

Brady had Vinatieri for 5 seasons and won 3 SBs, Manning has had him for 6 seasons and won 1 SB. If it was about the K wouldn't Peyton have won more by now? AV was very important obviously, he's the best clutch K in the game but Brady put him in those positions to win games.

A QB is more important then a kicker, Brady was more important them Vinatieri. My points is that a quality QB like Brady would not have won the games he did, without Vinatieri. A great kicker is not going to win championship games for you alone, but the thing you need to look at is not that there are many years that his teams have not won the SB, but that with the Pats, they have won 3, without him 0...With him the Colts have won 1 SB, without him 0.

 

[nyjunc]

I am not comparing the Colts SB year to the Pats. I said in my original post that, if not for his defense and kicker, Brady does not win a SB. Both won their SB with the help of a good defense, and a good kicker. You can't compare defenses of different years, because there are too many things that happen in a year that make it and easier the normal year, and tougher then normal year, like how many teams were playoff teams in your division, how tough was your schedule, were there injuries?

Dan Marino has a good defense, he wins at least 1 SB, and I personally think it way more, because he was an offense all by himself.




A QB is more important then a kicker, Brady was more important them Vinatieri. My points is that a quality QB like Brady would not have won the games he did, without Vinatieri. A great kicker is not going to win championship games for you alone, but the thing you need to look at is not that there are many years that his teams have not won the SB, but that with the Pats, they have won 3, without him 0...With him the Colts have won 1 SB, without him 0.

He saved his defense and set up the Kicker.

W/o Brady NE isn't even a playoff team in 2001 and they don't have a single SB app last decade.

I'm only comparing those defenses in postseason. I don't care what they did in the reg season.

Dan didn't have enough talent around him on offense. if he had more talent on offense I think he wins a SB. he had a top D in 1984 and they got kiled in his lone SB app.

I think he elevated average teams to AFC contenders.

A K is useless if he's not being set up to succeed. Bardy's SB winning drive in the SL game was one of the greatest drives in the history of the SB- probably was THE greatest until surpassed by Eli's drive in XLII and ben's in XLIII.

The reason they haven't won has nothing to do w/ the K. A K wouldn't have made a difference w/ the D blowing that late 4 pt lead against the Giants. The K is not why they lost to Bal or the Jets the last 2 years.

 

[tay0365]

He saved his defense and set up the Kicker.

Actually he was very little help in the SB years. To be a signifcant help, he needed to control the clock better then the average of almost 31 min per game. Vinatieri had some extreme pressure kicks that he made, he set up his kicker the way most do, difference was his kicker had ice in his veins.

W/o Brady NE isn't even a playoff team in 2001 and they don't have a single SB app last decade

I agree, and with either one not there, no SB wins for the Pats.

I'm only comparing those defenses in postseason. I don't care what they did in the reg season

Me too, the Patriots benifited by a very smart and pretty stingy D in the those SB years in the post season.

Dan didn't have enough talent around him on offense. if he had more talent on offense I think he wins a SB. he had a top D in 1984 and they got kiled in his lone SB app.

He had some talent, but whether he did not didn't means nothing because whatever he did have, Miami in those years was among the top offense in football.

As for getting killed in the SB, he was very young, and a victim of his own greatness. until that point, nobody had been able to stop him, Walsh did something extremely smart, he had extra DBs on every down, having them make sure Marino could not beat them vertically(15 yards or more), and almost pleading for Maimi to run the ball. Marino was impatient, and and forced too many balls into an extremely talanted 49er secondary.

I think he elevated average teams to AFC contenders.

He had a few talnted teams, but for the most part, yes, he did elevate good to average teams.

A K is useless if he's not being set up to succeed. Bardy's SB winning drive in the SL game was one of the greatest drives in the history of the SB- probably was THE greatest until surpassed by Eli's drive in XLII and ben's in XLIII.

Good QBs can make those late drives, great QB get a TD, not expect their Kicker to bail him out.

The reason they haven't won has nothing to do w/ the K. A K wouldn't have made a difference w/ the D blowing that late 4 pt lead against the Giants. The K is not why they lost to Bal or the Jets the last 2 years.

Against the Giants, because they were now riding the greatness of Brady/Moss/Welker, they were passing far more then years past, the kicking game was not even a thought. They have Vinateiri, the stratagy is different.

As for the games now, no, it's the defense that has not been up to snuff.

 

[nyjunc]

Actually he was very little help in the SB years. To be a signifcant help, he needed to control the clock better then the average of almost 31 min per game. Vinatieri had some extreme pressure kicks that he made, he set up his kicker the way most do, difference was his kicker had ice in his veins.



I agree, and with either one not there, no SB wins for the Pats.



Me too, the Patriots benifited by a very smart and pretty stingy D in the those SB years in the post season.



He had some talent, but whether he did not didn't means nothing because whatever he did have, Miami in those years was among the top offense in football.

As for getting killed in the SB, he was very young, and a victim of his own greatness. until that point, nobody had been able to stop him, Walsh did something extremely smart, he had extra DBs on every down, having them make sure Marino could not beat them vertically(15 yards or more), and almost pleading for Maimi to run the ball. Marino was impatient, and and forced too many balls into an extremely talanted 49er secondary.




He had a few talnted teams, but for the most part, yes, he did elevate good to average teams.



Good QBs can make those late drives, great QB get a TD, not expect their Kicker to bail him out.



Against the Giants, because they were now riding the greatness of Brady/Moss/Welker, they were passing far more then years past, the kicking game was not even a thought. They have Vinateiri, the stratagy is different.

As for the games now, no, it's the defense that has not been up to snuff.

Very little help? He was THE reason they won all those SBs.

In SB XXXVI his defense blew a 14 pt 4th qtr lead, he rescued them w/ that aamzing drive beginning inside his 20 w/ just over a minute left and no timeouts.

in SB XXXVIII his D allowed 18 4th qtr pts only to be rescued by Brady who led NE to 19 and the 3 pt win.

AV is the best K in the history of the game but just having him guarantees nothing or else Peyton would have more than one SB win or NE would have won a SB before Brady saved that franchise.

They would have won a SB w/o Vinatieri if they still had Brady. They were one choke job away from the D in 2007 from going undefeated and winning a 4th SB.

I don't blame him for losing to SF, I think '84 SF is one of the best teams of all time. I was just poitning out he had a big time D that year and didn't win it.

The K didn't bail Brady out, Brady set up the K to win.

They had a top kicker in 2007, they weren't approaching things differently b/c they didn't have AV. He had no bearing on them losing the SB, they didn't seem to miss him for the first 18 games.


I defend Brady all the time but I will take a shot here. he has not been good the last 2 playoff losses to Bal and NYJ. The D hasn't been good either but he hasn't played like he used to in postseason, he has struggled.

 

[tay0365]

Very little help? He was THE reason they won all those SBs.

Obviously I disagree, he did well in those games, but he was not the reason, or at least the sole reason, you may need to go back and watch those games.

In SB XXXVI his defense blew a 14 pt 4th qtr lead, he rescued them w/ that aamzing drive beginning inside his 20 w/ just over a minute left and no timeouts.

Did he score a TD in the end? Was he the one that kicked the pressue FG at the end? Not the only reason those SB went to the Pats.

in SB XXXVIII his D allowed 18 4th qtr pts only to be rescued by Brady who led NE to 19 and the 3 pt win.

Ok, Now I see we are taking about SB, I said his Defense was good in the Post season, in the SB there has been little defense from anyone, last year the great Steeler defense did not do to well in the SB. As for how they won, did Brady kick the winning FG?

AV is the best K in the history of the game but just having him guarantees nothing or else Peyton would have more than one SB win or NE would have won a SB before Brady saved that franchise.

Thank top Vinateiri, Payton finally got his SB, thanks to not having Vinateiri, Brady has not gotten any more SBs.

They would have won a SB w/o Vinatieri if they still had Brady. They were one choke job away from the D in 2007 from going undefeated and winning a 4th SB.

But the choked because they were riding Brady's arm and his great receivers, instead of playing the smart game they played before to protect Brady, and get the cheap points as many times as possible.

I don't blame him for losing to SF, I think '84 SF is one of the best teams of all time. I was just poitning out he had a big time D that year and didn't win it.

I have no doubt that if the 1985 or 1986 version of Marino was there that night, Miami makes it very close or wins, Marino was too young and in experienced what to do when things are not going right.

The K didn't bail Brady out, Brady set up the K to win.

The why not go for a TD, because he could not get it in, or did not want to risk an INT. Some of those Kicks were not gimmes, but they knew he would make it.

They had a top kicker in 2007, they weren't approaching things differently b/c they didn't have AV. He had no bearing on them losing the SB, they didn't seem to miss him for the first 18 games.

What made Vinateiri was not how many he made or how accurate he was, but how good he was in pressure time, they did not have a kicker ever close to Vinateiri, and on top of that, they got to confident riding the passing game, and they paid for it with the loss in the SB, which was lucky because they should have lost to the Chargers and the Jags even before they got to the SB.

I defend Brady all the time but I will take a shot here. he has not been good the last 2 playoff losses to Bal and NYJ. The D hasn't been good either but he hasn't played like he used to in postseason, he has struggled.

Ever since he came back from that injury 2 years ago, he has not been the same.

 

[FORMER FIN1]

The thing that comes immediately to mind is the "zone" The man would get into. Watching replays on Monday night football and of course he created the behind the defender pass mainly because OJ McDuff was too slow and had no seperation.

 

[FORMER FIN1]

Very little help? He was THE reason they won all those SBs.

In SB XXXVI his defense blew a 14 pt 4th qtr lead, he rescued them w/ that aamzing drive beginning inside his 20 w/ just over a minute left and no timeouts.

in SB XXXVIII his D allowed 18 4th qtr pts only to be rescued by Brady who led NE to 19 and the 3 pt win.

AV is the best K in the history of the game but just having him guarantees nothing or else Peyton would have more than one SB win or NE would have won a SB before Brady saved that franchise.

They would have won a SB w/o Vinatieri if they still had Brady. They were one choke job away from the D in 2007 from going undefeated and winning a 4th SB.

I don't blame him for losing to SF, I think '84 SF is one of the best teams of all time. I was just poitning out he had a big time D that year and didn't win it.

The K didn't bail Brady out, Brady set up the K to win.

They had a top kicker in 2007, they weren't approaching things differently b/c they didn't have AV. He had no bearing on them losing the SB, they didn't seem to miss him for the first 18 games.


I defend Brady all the time but I will take a shot here. he has not been good the last 2 playoff losses to Bal and NYJ. The D hasn't been good either but he hasn't played like he used to in postseason, he has struggled.

If only Stoyanovich was Vinatieri..........................................................

 

[tay0365]

If only Stoyanovich was Vinatieri..........................................................

 

[nyjunc]

Obviously I disagree, he did well in those games, but he was not the reason, or at least the sole reason, you may need to go back and watch those games.



Did he score a TD in the end? Was he the one that kicked the pressue FG at the end? Not the only reason those SB went to the Pats.




Ok, Now I see we are taking about SB, I said his Defense was good in the Post season, in the SB there has been little defense from anyone, last year the great Steeler defense did not do to well in the SB. As for how they won, did Brady kick the winning FG?




Thank top Vinateiri, Payton finally got his SB, thanks to not having Vinateiri, Brady has not gotten any more SBs.



But the choked because they were riding Brady's arm and his great receivers, instead of playing the smart game they played before to protect Brady, and get the cheap points as many times as possible.



I have no doubt that if the 1985 or 1986 version of Marino was there that night, Miami makes it very close or wins, Marino was too young and in experienced what to do when things are not going right.



The why not go for a TD, because he could not get it in, or did not want to risk an INT. Some of those Kicks were not gimmes, but they knew he would make it.



What made Vinateiri was not how many he made or how accurate he was, but how good he was in pressure time, they did not have a kicker ever close to Vinateiri, and on top of that, they got to confident riding the passing game, and they paid for it with the loss in the SB, which was lucky because they should have lost to the Chargers and the Jags even before they got to the SB.



Ever since he came back from that injury 2 years ago, he has not been the same.

No one player is the only reason but he was the most important player on all of those title teams. If he's not on that team those teams have no shot to even get to a SB and BB is a DC somewhere today.

FGs don't count? He ste up thsoe Fgs w/ incredibly clutch play. The one time he did lead them to a TD his D choked it away.

Brady set up the winning FG.

Brayd led a team to an undefeated season w/o Vinatieri.

The Giant d killed Brady that game, he was under incredible pressure. It was amazing that w/ the game on the line he could muster up that TD drive. Too bad for him and NE that the D choked it away.

Nah, SF '84 was too good. Maybe only SF '89 or Chi '85 could have beaten that team.

Why go for a TD when you only need a FG? It was also more of a time issue. In the SL SB he got the ball w/ 1:21 to play and NO timeouts at the NE 17 yd line. In the Car SB they got the ball at the 540 w/ 1:08 to play. In both games it was the last pay of the game.

Gostowski has been very clutch. He's not AV but he's been a great K. He's made 82% of his kicks in postseason w/ the 2 msises turning out to be meaningless misses.

He was the MVP of the league w/ a year as good as we have seen from any QB in recent times. It's hard to blame it on the injury when he was so great in the reg season. he's basically turned into Peyton later in his career- great reg seasons and chokes in january.

---------- Post added at 04:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:23 PM ----------

If only Stoyanovich was Vinatieri..........................................................

Then what? You'd still have no SB wins but you may have made the SB in 1994 only to get crushed by SF just like SD was.

 

[FORMER FIN1]

Then what? You'd still have no SB wins but you may have made the SB in 1994 only to get crushed by SF just like SD was.[/QUOTE]


Thanks Joe Namath. I got something you can kiss..................................................3rd in total offense and 28th out of 28 in kicking.

 

[nyjunc]

Then what? You'd still have no SB wins but you may have made the SB in 1994 only to get crushed by SF just like SD was.

Thanks Joe Namath. I got something you can kiss..................................................3rd in total offense and 28th out of 28 in kicking.[/QUOTE]

Stoyanovich connected on 77% of his kicks in 1994, not great but Vinatieri has been around that % most of his career. Either way 1994 Miami was not wnning a SB, they could have won the AFC(I think they were the best team in the AFC that year) but the NFC was MUCH better than the AFC in those days and it wasn't the kicker who blew a 21-6 halftime lead. The D gets its share of the blame and Dan could have led that O to more points in the 2nd half.

 

[tay0365]

Thanks Joe Namath. I got something you can kiss..................................................3rd in total offense and 28th out of 28 in kicking.

Stoyanovich connected on 77% of his kicks in 1994, not great but Vinatieri has been around that % most of his career. Either way 1994 Miami was not wnning a SB, they could have won the AFC(I think they were the best team in the AFC that year) but the NFC was MUCH better than the AFC in those days and it wasn't the kicker who blew a 21-6 halftime lead. The D gets its share of the blame and Dan could have led that O to more points in the 2nd half.

Junc, as I reminded you before, what made Vinatieri great was not how how kick when it did not matter, but how he kicked when the pressure was on, you know very well you can not compare Vinatieri to Stoyanovich by just putting up stats.

I don't know know if your just too young but Stoyanovich had a big leg, but was very inconsistant, if he had made that kick, as has been proven again and again, anything could happen in the SB. In 1984 many thought there was no way the 49ers could stop Marino. In 2000 - 2010 the Patriots, Giants, Saints, and Packers were all not supposed to have any chance this past decade, that did not workout how many thought. If a top QB like Brady could benifit from a Kicker like Vinatieri, imagine what an elite QB like Marino could do.

 

[nyjunc]

Junc, as I reminded you before, what made Vinatieri great was not how how kick when it did not matter, but how he kicked when the pressure was on, you know very well you can not compare Vinatieri to Stoyanovich by just putting up stats.

I don't know know if your just too young but Stoyanovich had a big leg, but was very inconsistant, if he had made that kick, as has been proven again and again, anything could happen in the SB. In 1984 many thought there was no way the 49ers could stop Marino. In 2000 - 2010 the Patriots, Giants, Saints, and Packers were all not supposed to have any chance this past decade, that did not workout how many thought. If a top QB like Brady could benifit from a Kicker like Vinatieri, imagine what an elite QB like Marino could do.

No doubt about it, AV is the best of all time and he would have helped but it's hard to blame the '94 loss on Pete alone when you blew such a big lead. There were many culprits.

The pats and Giants weren't supposed to have a chance but many people picked NO and GB(I did- I also picked NE in '01 and won alot of money in that game:D).