Who had the better career: Bob Griese or Dan Marino?

['Deep]

That was JJ I think. Along w Kareem Abdul 3.3 per carry jabberwocky, JJ Johnson, Jerisi McPhail and so on

Yet Bobby Humphrey averaged 4.6 ypc when he came over for Sammie Smith in '92.

 

[Adam Strange]

I'll just say this: when you're playing with a HOF running back who was a dominant-- if not the dominant-- back of his era, two other backs reeling off chunks of yardage, a HOF wide receiver, HOFers and near HOFers on the line, and playing with a defense that had one HOFer and more that should be HOFers, all pros all over the roster, coached by Don Shula at the height of his powers, and with a FO that's actually making competent moves-- you're turning the level of difficulty way down.

Compare that to what Marino had. A competent and at times explosive passing offense, clearly elevated by him, and with other fantastic players from Nat Moore, to Clayton and Duper, to Irving Fryar and a host of others-- but that's it. Never a 1,000 yard back during Marino's prime, much less a dominant one. Never more than a laughable defense soon into Marino's tenure. Ridiculous incompetence in acquiring talent. Shula was there, sure, but his GMing doomed him, as did his loyalty to incompetents. Finally started drafting some excellent players in the 90s, but none of them are going to the Hall anytime soon. And Shula and the FO were clueless when it came to competing with the Bills, and that put the final nail in the coffin of Marino's legacy.

Context matters, and this isn't baseball. Wins, even SB wins, aren't a QB stat. Unless you think Terry Bradshaw is better than Marino, Fouts, and Tarkenton.

 

[GhostArmOfMarino]

Great summary, and I think the answer to your question in the final paragraph is a resounding No. Thank goodness Dan Marino wasn't anywhere near those early '70s teams. I remember fuming in rage while filing out of the Orange Bowl after Marino's first start, the 38-35 home overtime loss to Buffalo in 1983 as 6.5 point favorites. All the people filing down the circular ramps were so damn chirpy. I shouted out loud, "Does anyone realize we just lost to Buffalo...at home?"

Who cares? That was the reply from all directions. Because now we have Danny Marino, and he can throw the football.

I shouted out to get ready for more losses like the one we just witnessed. That's what that type of football brings.

During my years in Las Vegas the Dolphins were basically considered a laughingstock, a team that couldn't be taken seriously due to the style of play. It seemed so clear cut it never dawned on me that there was an opposing view, not from serious fans. Then I was beyond astonished when the internet surged in usage and on those forums I was reading fellow Dolphin fans who were actually cherishing those years and the player himself. It felt like a Twilight Zone episode where tiny becomes gigantic.

When I joined this site in 2005 I matter of factly mentioned in several posts that the Jets have always been my second favorite team, and that I despised the Dan Marino years. I knew I wouldn't be making many friends with that approach. But nothing has changed 17 years later, other than the Giants are now co-equal second with the Jets courtesy of that breathtaking and aura saving Super Bowl upset of the Patriots.

Hopefully we'll have another legitimate era sometime soon, one that doesn't require fanciful adjustment.

Scoring more points makes things easier for the defense, not harder. Giving up 38 points is all on them. Nothing to do with the style.

 

[rafael]

To your point and Awsi Dooger's, I always wondered why Miami wasn't able to get a quality run game going with Dan Marino.

Shula's team dominated on the ground in the early 70's and had a quality running game between Griese and the Woodley/Strock years.

The Dolphins lacked that balance that the upper echelon teams had in the Marino years, leaving Dan to play the superman role far too often.

I wonder if that was partially Marino's fault. I mentioned how, (I think it was in this thread), there were complaints among the staff that Marino so often checked to pass plays. As McDaniel said, 'you are what you emphasize'. Young didn't win a SB until he learned to not try to do it all himself. I heard Young talk about how it took him time to understand that it was better for the team over the long haul to just hand it off to the FB even if he knew that he could gain more yards by keeping it or throwing it. It's a level of being a team player that many don't understand.

 

[SF Dolphin Fan]

I wonder if that was partially Marino's fault. I mentioned how, (I think it was in this thread), there were complaints among the staff that Marino so often checked to pass plays. As McDaniel said, 'you are what you emphasize'. Young didn't win a SB until he learned to not try to do it all himself. I heard Young talk about how it took him time to understand that it was better for the team over the long haul to just hand it off to the FB even if he knew that he could gain more yards by keeping it or throwing it. It's a level of being a team player that many don't understand.

I do think that could be partially true. If you look at the super bowl loss to SF, when Walsh countered Marino's hot start by inserting 7 db's, Shula added an extra sixth offensive lineman presumably to run the ball.

Yet the Dolphins ended up with something like nine rushing attempts. Is that partly on Dan? Could Miami have eventually had success on the ground?

 

[Adam Strange]

The lack of a running game wasn't a Marino problem. It was a talent problem. If anything, we got more than we could have expected out of starters like Parmalee, Spikes, and Higgs. And Smith was a terrible bust. It's not like Barry Sanders was sitting back there, or Emmit Smith, and Marino was checking out of running plays.

 

[royalshank]

I do think that could be partially true. If you look at the super bowl loss to SF, when Walsh countered Marino's hot start by inserting 7 db's, Shula added an extra sixth offensive lineman presumably to run the ball.

Yet the Dolphins ended up with something like nine rushing attempts. Is that partly on Dan? Could Miami have eventually had success on the ground?

When Shula countered w the extra OL it definitely WAS NOT on Dan. The 49er DL repeatedly penetrated the double teams and got arms on our RBs before they even got to the LOS. There’s even a clip of Dwight Stephenson whiffing as Pillars or Dean got underneath him. It was a forgettable performance by a very talented OL. So no, Dan wasn’t changing the plays - Nathan and Bennett were getting dropped in their tracks even w 3 DL + Keena Turner going against 6 blockers. So frustrating.

 

[royalshank]

Shula def had some misses in the 1st round, but nothing from the draft 8 years in a row? Which eight years are you talking about?

He whiffed from ‘84-‘89 when he got Webb and Simms in ‘90. He hit on Offerdahl in the mid 80’s and Louis Oliver in ‘89. The dry spell was ‘84-‘89 minus a couple of guys.

 

[SF Dolphin Fan]

It’s maddening. They drafted a lot of backs like Lorenzo Hampton and Sammie Smith w high picks. Just didn’t hit on them.

It seemed almost unfair to pair Marino and Shula. It was as if the football Gods were smiling on Miami.

I had never seen a quarterback come into the league with the success Marino had. Just didn’t happen back then. I've often said that the NFL had to adjust to Marino, not the other way around. Fans watching today's game probably don't understand how rare that was.

Anyway, as we've talked about before, a lot of things went badly for the Dolphins in that time period as well. Injuries to John Bosa and Hugh Green that basically ended their careers. The sad deaths of Larry Gordon and David Overstreet. A series of bad drafts.

Also, it was certainly talked about that teams like Dallas and San Francisco were spending three times what other teams were spending, eventually leading to the salary cap.

Shula and Marino might have won some titles in a salary cap NFL.

 

[GhostArmOfMarino]

Your post shows that you in fact “don’t” get the the difference in the eras….

Griese was 8 times a pro bowler, 2 times all-pro…NFL MVP and NFL player of the year…..

After the loss of his famous running backs he would be named The NFL’s best while leading the NFL in touchdown passes in 1977.

Nobody suggests Marino is not the greatest passer in Dolphin history….but, to act like Griese was not one of the NFL’s elite QB’s in his era is naivety and clearly shows you didn’t watch both eras first hand, that you aren’t aware of the rules changes, the added protection given to QB’s as time progressed etc etc etc

Not efficient? He completed nearly every pass he threw in back to back Super Bowl Victories!

It reminds me of current fans who want to diminish Marino because of the further rules changes of the 2000’s that made passing even easier and continued opening up the offenses that saw seemingly untouchable records of Marino quickly fall after the changes.

Noone is saying Griese wasn't great necessarily. They are saying he wasn't as good as Marino, and did we win a superbowl in 77? No? So then he couldn't do it either on his own. They aren't comparable as players.

 

[SF Dolphin Fan]

Knowing how their careers turned out. Griese would lead the team to win 2 Superbowls but Dan would set the NFL on fire and keep us relevant for 17 years. I told my friend, I respect Griese more than Marino because he was able to lead us to win 2 Superbowls and Marino never did. Unfortunately that's what quarterbacks are judged on and even an inferior QB is deemed more successful when Superbowls are involved.

It's a fair point. The fact that Griese won multiple super bowls is especially impressive.

Obviously, those 70's teams had talent but Griese was the leader of the offense. He beat Tarkenton, Bradshaw and Stabler in the biggest games he played against each of them.

 

[royalshank]

It seemed almost unfair to pair Marino and Shula. It was as if the football Gods were smiling on Miami.

I had never seen a quarterback come into the league with the success Marino had. Just didn’t happen back then. I've often said that the NFL had to adjust to Marino, not the other way around. Fans watching today's game probably don't understand how rare that was.

Anyway, as we've talked about before, a lot of things went badly for the Dolphins in that time period as well. Injuries to John Bosa and Hugh Green that basically ended their careers. The sad deaths of Larry Gordon and David Overstreet. A series of bad drafts.

Also, it was certainly talked about that teams like Dallas and San Francisco were spending three times what other teams were spending, eventually leading to the salary cap.

Shula and Marino might have won some titles in a salary cap NFL.

All of this. Marino played like a rookie for about 2 series (both ended w picks) in his first start vs Buffalo and then it was as if he learned 10 years of NFL level football on those two drives and started carving up the Bills w 4 TDs and a zillion yards and it just didn’t stop. Guys did not come into the league and do that back then. And you are absolutely correct. The league had to adjust to him. Zone defenses were forced to go more man because it was pointless to play read and react. You weren’t going to beat his timing patterns.

 

[BlueFin]

Noone is saying Griese wasn't great necessarily. They are saying he wasn't as good as Marino, and did we win a superbowl in 77? No? So then he couldn't do it either on his own. They aren't comparable as players.

Their eras cannot be compared by the Stat boys…it’s a different game.

However, Griese was an elite QB in his era…being named MVP and player of the year as much or more than Marino.

 

[SF Dolphin Fan]

Their eras cannot be compared by the Stat boys…it’s a different game.

However, Griese was an elite QB in his era…being named MVP and player of the year as much or more than Marino.

Right. I think you can compare Marino to Kelly, Elway and Montana. Griese to Tarkenton, Bradshaw, Staubach and Stabler.

 

[Joe Dolfan]

This is a great way of putting it. I cannot stand the "he didn't win a super bowl" argument. Did Barkley win an NBA title? Did Bonds win a world series? Dan is one of the Mount Rushmore QBs. He changed the way the league approached throwing the football. I wish he had the opportunity to play in today's game because he'd put up sillier numbers than he already did.

I'm a Giants fan, and I hope Bonds never gets into the HoF. Please don't use that bum as an argument for Marino.