Is Tom Brady the Best Ever?

[nyjunc]

Its hard to stand up and say that Tom brady lead them to 16-0, its a team effort and tom sure did help but he wasnt alone. As a whole that team is good, Tom just so happen to have big time reciever for once and a go to guy. Of course hes gonna get 50 TD when you got Moss catching jump balls and you have 7 seconds to sit back behind the line and sip some tea. I think people put to much emphasis on the fact that they were 0-2 at start then he lead them to the superbowl, Brady stepped into a system that was built for him in mind,bledsoe not so much. But then again we are talking about the walking sack of potatoes, Bledsoe got sacked often and was innacurate. I cant and nor should anyone else take anything away from what he did or has done cause it still takes talent. But everyone must also look at the other things that come into his success...Line, Coaching, WR, and have the opposing teams signals doesnt hurt either. To make an accurate assesment of the all time greats you must really look deep at the team itself to totally guage each player accuratly :)

Just look at Belichick's record pre-Brady and let me know what you see, check out NE's records the few years before he got there. Brady instantly made them a contender, NE couldn't do anything against us all day long w/ Bledsoe then Brady comes in late and magically the O starts moving the ball and although we won 10-3 the game ended at our 2 yard line. he just ran out of time, had he come in a few series earlier NE would at least have sent that game to OT. Tom Brady is BY FAR the best QB of his generation and very much in the discussion for best of all time.

i have said time after time he is only good because of the o line. i love marino but after it is said and done i think manning will be the best ever

Put Brady on Indy and Manning on nE and I think NE maybe has 1 SB while Indy has at least 2-3. Manning is a big time choker, he is the anti-Tom Brady. He has a LONG way to go to catch Brady.

 

[godolphins1985]

Just look at Belichick's record pre-Brady and let me know what you see, check out NE's records the few years before he got there. Brady instantly made them a contender, NE couldn't do anything against us all day long w/ Bledsoe then Brady comes in late and magically the O starts moving the ball and although we won 10-3 the game ended at our 2 yard line. he just ran out of time, had he come in a few series earlier NE would at least have sent that game to OT. Tom Brady is BY FAR the best QB of his generation and very much in the discussion for best of all time.



Put Brady on Indy and Manning on nE and I think NE maybe has 1 SB while Indy has at least 2-3. Manning is a big time choker, he is the anti-Tom Brady. He has a LONG way to go to catch Brady.

First off like i said in one of my posts is that Bledsoe is no brady, bledsoe being there and having no success is directly tied to the patriots losing record. You are correct in saying that Brady stepped in and magically they go on to the superbowl. It is no mystery, its just he is a product of the system he was produced for. But just because Tom did it doesnt mean another managable QB couldnt have brought them to the superbowl as well.
You also speak of there record before brady got there ( you said few years), well belicheat also wasnt there and has nothing to do with that regime. One has nothing to do with the other.
I wouldnt say that Manning is a big time choker because he has pulled off a lot of 4th quarter comebacks, so can you explain what choking has to do with him having a LONGGGGGG way to go to catch brady , how?

 

[fatkirstyalley]

Watch out saying Brady is overrated, i got lynched for it!

Thanks for the heads up. If I get Lynched I get Lynched I dont care. Im a Biased Dolphin fan and if another finfan wants to stick for that Pretty little turd then they have every right. Tom Brady is OVERRATED! He is a great quaterback...I used the word great because he is, but he is not Legendary. Who knows what type of advantages he recieved due to the Pats cheating, normally you get caught doing about 10-20% of what you have actually done. Plus, playing in an offense that throws the ball 65% of the time played a large role in his numbers. OVERRATED

 

[godolphins1985]

you also say they should be at 2-3 suberbowls with Brady, you need to scratch 1 off because i dont count the first 1 because that BS call that they shouldnt even have gotten there. You also dont look at the fact that MR. Brady has had D signals, you dont think that helped? And dont say that it doesnt because it wouldnt be a rule if it wasnt, they cheated for a reason..to get an edge, or one up on the oposing D.

 

[godolphins1985]

Thanks for the heads up. If I get Lynched I get Lynched I dont care. Im a Biased Dolphin fan and if another finfan wants to stick for that Pretty little turd then they have every right. Tom Brady is OVERRATED! He is a great quaterback...I used the word great because he is, but he is not Legendary. Who knows what type of advantages he recieved due to the Pats cheating, normally you get caught doing about 10-20% of what you have actually done. Plus, playing in an offense that throws the ball 65% of the time played a large role in his numbers. OVERRATED

i agree, who cant throw 50 plus TD when you throw 70 percent and have an offensive line that holds long enough for you to read a chapter in a book.

 

[nyjunc]

First off like i said in one of my posts is that Bledsoe is no brady, bledsoe being there and having no success is directly tied to the patriots losing record. You are correct in saying that Brady stepped in and magically they go on to the superbowl. It is no mystery, its just he is a product of the system he was produced for. But just because Tom did it doesnt mean another managable QB couldnt have brought them to the superbowl as well.
You also speak of there record before brady got there ( you said few years), well belicheat also wasnt there and has nothing to do with that regime. One has nothing to do with the other.
I wouldnt say that Manning is a big time choker because he has pulled off a lot of 4th quarter comebacks, so can you explain what choking has to do with him having a LONGGGGGG way to go to catch brady , how?

I love the "product of the system" excuse. Brady would be successful in any system, he's an all-time great NFL QB and he's done so much of his career w/o great offensive talent around him.

You can blame it all on Bledsoe but NE had JUST re-signed Bledsoe to a long term contract so how was a 6th rd pick from the year before "a product of the system he was PRODUCED FOR"? Their plans were for Brady to be a backup long term until Brady was so good they didn't have a choice but to play him. W/ o w/o Mo lewis' hit Brady was going to play very soon.

Belichick was there in 2000 and went 5-11, he was 0-2 w/o Brady in 2001.

Belichick pre-Brady: 41-57, 1 playoff appearance, 5 of 6 losing seasons, 0-1 in playoffs.
Belichick w/ Brady: 86-24, 6 div titles, 6 playoff appearances, 3 SBs, 4 Conf titles, 14-3 in playoffs.

As far as Manning goes, I don't care aboput regular season games. That's not where the pressure is, it's in January and he has been a mediocre QB in January unlike Tom Brady and that's why he has only 1 SB and Brady has 3 SB wins and 4 SB appearances.

Thanks for the heads up. If I get Lynched I get Lynched I dont care. Im a Biased Dolphin fan and if another finfan wants to stick for that Pretty little turd then they have every right. Tom Brady is OVERRATED! He is a great quaterback...I used the word great because he is, but he is not Legendary. Who knows what type of advantages he recieved due to the Pats cheating, normally you get caught doing about 10-20% of what you have actually done. Plus, playing in an offense that throws the ball 65% of the time played a large role in his numbers. OVERRATED

So I take it Marino is overrated then? Since 2001 NE has thrown the ball 54% of the time and run it 46% of the time. Miami from '83-'99(I took out '93 since he barely played) threw the ball 58% of the time and ran it 42%.

 

[godolphins1985]

I love the "product of the system" excuse. Brady would be successful in any system, he's an all-time great NFL QB and he's done so much of his career w/o great offensive talent around him.

You can blame it all on Bledsoe but NE had JUST re-signed Bledsoe to a long term contract so how was a 6th rd pick from the year before "a product of the system he was PRODUCED FOR"? Their plans were for Brady to be a backup long term until Brady was so good they didn't have a choice but to play him. W/ o w/o Mo lewis' hit Brady was going to play very soon.

Belichick was there in 2000 and went 5-11, he was 0-2 w/o Brady in 2001.

Belichick pre-Brady: 41-57, 1 playoff appearance, 5 of 6 losing seasons, 0-1 in playoffs.
Belichick w/ Brady: 86-24, 6 div titles, 6 playoff appearances, 3 SBs, 4 Conf titles, 14-3 in playoffs.

As far as Manning goes, I don't care aboput regular season games. That's not where the pressure is, it's in January and he has been a mediocre QB in January unlike Tom Brady and that's why he has only 1 SB and Brady has 3 SB wins and 4 SB appearances.



So I take it Marino is overrated then? Since 2001 NE has thrown the ball 54% of the time and run it 46% of the time. Miami from '83-'99(I took out '93 since he barely played) threw the ball 58% of the time and ran it 42%.

i believe kirstyally was refering to ONLY this last season.

as for me all i can say is that Bledsoe was inherited by Belecheat, not by choice. Was Brady ready in 2000?? NOOOOOOOOO....was brady ready in 2001??NOOOOOOOOOO....Brady came in because he had 2, and had more success earlier. You dont think its by chance that he was drafted by belecheat and thrown in because they had no other option. Belecheat knew wat he had in Brady because he molded a skinny smart kid outta college into what he wanted. And you say brady can come into any system and be successful? How but a system that is more run and gun, you think he can still be successful?? when did brady become mike vick/vince young. Coaches usually arm an arsenal of plays and players around the QB that highlights there strenghts and strenghtens his weaknesses, thats what creating a system is all about. What a system it would be for vince young to be playing in another teams system where its throw first and your main priority is to stay in the pocket and throw the football. On the flip someone like vince young could play in a system like Philly (very similar). By stating that he could fit every system makes me feel like you think that if i said no one in the world could lift a tank and you respond .."TOM CAN DO IT, HE CAN DO ANYTHING!" Its just silly the guy cant do it all no matter how much you would like him to.

 

[ih8brady]

Is Brady great? Yes. Best ever? No. He never passed the threshold of 30 TDs before he landed the greatest WR in the history of the game for a mere fourth rounder.

 

[nyjunc]

Is Brady great? Yes. Best ever? No. He never passed the threshold of 30 TDs before he landed the greatest WR in the history of the game for a mere fourth rounder.

So I guess Montana wasn't great either since he never threw 30 TDs in a seaosn until he got Rice and even then he "only" had 31 and never reached 30 again. But I guess that's more important than leading a team to a SB w/ Ricky Patton, Earl Cooper and Johnny Davis as yous starting RBs and Freddie Solomon and Dwight Clark as your WRs which sounds alot like leading a team to a SB while having Antowain Smith, Kevin Faulk and JR redmond as your RBs w/ Troy Brown & David Patten as your WRs. Oh, both Montana and Brady won w/ that talent around them in their FIRST full year of starting. To me that's more impressive than putting up fantasy #s like a Daunte Culpepper, Warren Moon or Steve Young.

 

[godolphins1985]

So I guess Montana wasn't great either since he never threw 30 TDs in a seaosn until he got Rice and even then he "only" had 31 and never reached 30 again. But I guess that's more important than leading a team to a SB w/ Ricky Patton, Earl Cooper and Johnny Davis as yous starting RBs and Freddie Solomon and Dwight Clark as your WRs which sounds alot like leading a team to a SB while having Antowain Smith, Kevin Faulk and JR redmond as your RBs w/ Troy Brown & David Patten as your WRs. Oh, both Montana and Brady won w/ that talent around them in their FIRST full year of starting. To me that's more impressive than putting up fantasy #s like a Daunte Culpepper, Warren Moon or Steve Young.

So are you all outta Brady juice? no more trying to rip threw my comments or do you just have no come back from my last post?:wink:

 

[FinFrenzy]

IMHO Brady is a great QB, best ever absolutly NO! The best QB in the NFL right now is Peyton Manning I believe with Brady second.

Brady would not have the success he has now if he was playing in the late 80's early 90's, with the rules and having two teams in the same division Bills and Dolphins (Kelly and Marino) slinging it out all the time which takes time off the board.

New rules some made for him a.k.a. the tuck rule, no real constant competition in our division. I'm not even going to get into the asterisk.

Brady will make the list of best all time QB but there are many of them..true franchise QB's that help their team win. Unitas, Marino, Elway, Montana, Favre, Kelly, Griese, Namath, etc. etc. The only difference is that many on that list played against each other in their prime, which was electrifying to watch.

 

[godolphins1985]

So I guess Montana wasn't great either since he never threw 30 TDs in a seaosn until he got Rice and even then he "only" had 31 and never reached 30 again. But I guess that's more important than leading a team to a SB

So if your a QB and youve taken a team to the superbowl that puts you above other QB's just by default. For 1 a QB doesnt take the team to the SB, a TEAM does that together. And 2, if what you say is correct then we need to talk about Big Ben cause he WON a superbowl! He is now an immortal for doing so, he belongs up there with montana, and the rest of the bunch cause of that SB victory:rolleyes2:.

SB means something but not everything. There is too much involved with gauging a QB and it cant be discounted. Tom Brady is surrounded by a great line YES. Tom Brady had mediocre WR for multi years and did very well, YES. Tom Brady when given a stud produced well, Yes. Tom Brady knew D signals and resulted in a unfair advantage , YES. Tom Brady over threw or threw up fly balls to moss a lot YES. Most of the TD thrown by Brady was more moss skill than his YES.

You need to realize that with a great Oline and knowing what the other team is gonna do is a tremendous advantage. Anyone can do great with "Intangables" like that hahahaha.

 

[nyjunc]

So are you all outta Brady juice? no more trying to rip threw my comments or do you just have no come back from my last post?:wink:

Do you really want me to? Remember that you asked.

as for me all i can say is that Bledsoe was inherited by Belecheat, not by choice.

He did inherit him but why after the 2000 season did the Pats sign Drew Bledsoe to a record contract in March of 2001 if they knew Brady was ready to step in?

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/03/07/sports/main276973.shtml

was brady ready in 2001??NOOOOOOOOOO....Brady came in because he had 2, and had more success earlier.

obviously he was ready in 2001 as he led them to a SB but b/c they gave Drew the long term deal months earlier Brady wasn't in the plans to be a starter. he wowed them in camp and he was forced into the lineup a little earlier than they would have wanted but Belichick's job was in jeopardy and Brady was going to be starting soon whether Drew got hurt or not.

Belecheat knew wat he had in Brady because he molded a skinny smart kid outta college into what he wanted.

Yep, that's why in March of '01 they gave Bledsoe a record deal, the Pats obviously loved to give away free money and weren't worried at all about the cap

And you say brady can come into any system and be successful? How but a system that is more run and gun, you think he can still be successful?? when did brady become mike vick/vince young.

OK, you got me. He's not a Young/Vick type but those aren't classic QB systems, those guys makwe things up on the fly. You think thoe plays are drawn up by the coaches?

Coaches usually arm an arsenal of plays and players around the QB that highlights there strenghts and strenghtens his weaknesses, thats what creating a system is all about.

So the Pats drafted a QB in the 6th rd then gave their current QB a long term, record deal all w/ the idea to build a system around the 6th rd QB?

IMHO Brady is a great QB, best ever absolutly NO! The best QB in the NFL right now is Peyton Manning I believe with Brady second.

Brady is far and away better than Manning and has been for most of his career. if we are talking fantasy #s then yes peyton is better(although Brady passed him in that area as well last year) but Brady is the better QB b/c he always makes plays to win and he's not intimidated by playing in January- he thrives on it. It's why the coaches who were polled recently overwhelming chose Brady over manning to build a team around.

Of 29 HC's who responded 22 of them chose Brady and 6 Manning. Why is that?

http://myespn.go.com/blogs/hashmarks/0-8-58/NFL-coaches-prefer-Brady-over-Manning.html

Brady would not have the success he has now if he was playing in the late 80's early 90's, with the rules and having two teams in the same division Bills and Dolphins (Kelly and Marino) slinging it out all the time which takes time off the board.

He'd have as much success as he's having now b/c he's better than kelly and may end up being better than Marino and his Pats teams are better than the Dolphins and Bills of the 80s and 90s. Brady can win playing any style, whether it's a slug it out low scoring game or a high scoring shootout.

New rules some made for him a.k.a. the tuck rule, no real constant competition in our division. I'm not even going to get into the asterisk.

What constant competition was there 154-20 years ago? The Bills were good every year bu the Jets, Colts and Pats stuink regularly and Miami was ok. It's just like now except Miami and Buf have stunk and the Jets have been ok makming the postseason every other year.

Brady will make the list of best all time QB but there are many of them..true franchise QB's that help their team win. Unitas, Marino, Elway, Montana, Favre, Kelly, Griese, Namath, etc. etc. The only difference is that many on that list played against each other in their prime, which was electrifying to watch.

Of couirse there are many great QBs but only a handful I think belong in the best ever discussion- Marino, Montana, Graham, Unitas and now Brady.

So if your a QB and youve taken a team to the superbowl that puts you above other QB's just by default. For 1 a QB doesnt take the team to the SB, a TEAM does that together. And 2, if what you say is correct then we need to talk about Big Ben cause he WON a superbowl! He is now an immortal for doing so, he belongs up there with montana, and the rest of the bunch cause of that SB victory

Who said it puts you up there by default? it doesn't but it can seperate great players. When you see guys like Montaan and Brady play so well in postseason vs. say a Steve Young or Peyton Manning who are/were choke artists you can easily put Montana and Brady ahead of them. It's not Championships, it's elevating a team. Marino never won a SB but he elevated mediocre teams to heights they wouldn't have reached w/o him which is why I put him near the top. A guy like Young inherited a dynasty and only won one SB and that was thanks to Jimmy Johnson and Jerry Jones parting ways.

It's like in baseball w/ ARod vs. Nomar vs. Jeter. Arod & nomar put up the better fantasy #s but I'll take Jeter over them any day b/c he shows up when it matters. I play fantasy football but I do not judge players based on fantasy stats.

 

[godolphins1985]

obviously he was ready in 2001 as he led them to a SB but b/c they gave Drew the long term deal months earlier Brady wasn't in the plans to be a starter. he wowed them in camp and he was forced into the lineup a little earlier than they would have wanted but Belichick's job was in jeopardy and Brady was going to be starting soon whether Drew got hurt or not.



He might have brought them to a superbowl in 01 but clearly wasnt ready, his numbers increased with every year. He was atleast another year or so until cheat was ready to unleash him.



Yep, that's why in March of '01 they gave Bledsoe a record deal, the Pats obviously loved to give away free money and weren't worried at all about the cap



OK, you got me. He's not a Young/Vick type but those aren't classic QB systems, those guys makwe things up on the fly. You think thoe plays are drawn up by the coaches?




So the Pats drafted a QB in the 6th rd then gave their current QB a long term, record deal all w/ the idea to build a system around the 6th rd QB?


.

First of all that was the longest post in the history of posts lol.

Well im sure just like any Coach they dont wanna go ahead and just put all his money on a QB that hasnt taken a single snap in his life in the nfl and just shove a proven vet aside. He needed some type of insurance, what would have happened if they didnt resign him and then Brady stunk, what then?

They arnt drawn up to run around like an idiot a lot but they are given more freedom to roam unlike some other QB's, other qbs's main priority after not seeing there 2 primary's might have to check down to the RB.


I was talking sorta in general, i think a system was in place for a Brady like player not him persay but like him. In 01 regardless of talent on offense it was short yardage plays and dump offs to the RB. Bledsoe isnt that kind of player, hes more like a missle silo, waits waits waits then unleashes the long ball (a lot). He just doesnt fit the system, poor Bledsoe grew up in the wrong era. He missed that boat when marino elway was playing. Poor drew lol.

so take that JETS PUNK hahaha JK.

 

[ih8brady]

So I guess Montana wasn't great either since he never threw 30 TDs in a seaosn until he got Rice and even then he "only" had 31 and never reached 30 again. But I guess that's more important than leading a team to a SB w/ Ricky Patton, Earl Cooper and Johnny Davis as yous starting RBs and Freddie Solomon and Dwight Clark as your WRs which sounds alot like leading a team to a SB while having Antowain Smith, Kevin Faulk and JR redmond as your RBs w/ Troy Brown & David Patten as your WRs. Oh, both Montana and Brady won w/ that talent around them in their FIRST full year of starting. To me that's more impressive than putting up fantasy #s like a Daunte Culpepper, Warren Moon or Steve Young.

Did I say Brady wasn't great? NO. I said he was great in my first two sentences. Nice strawman.

My point was that his first great season as a passer wasn't until last year. Was Pre-2007 Brady ever proclaimed the undisputed best QB ever? No. The reason why this thread exists is because of one season; last season.