Knowing what you knownow, Matt Ryan or Jake Long?

[dlockz]

I stand by my point that Matt Ryan was not spectacular. When you have to preface how good his was with "for a rookie QB," then he was not spectacular. Spectacular is starting in the Pro Bowl, leading the league in passer rating, and throwing more than 20 TDs in a little more than half a season. Spectacular is being easily a top 5 QB after a single season. Matt Ryan, by my definition, was not spectacular. He was spectacular...for a rookie QB. Compared to the rest of the NFL, Matt Ryan was just solid. After next season, I am 99% sure that Ryan will be spectacular.

Spectacular, spectacular, spectacular, spectacular, spectacular, spectacular, spectacular, spectacular, spectacular, spectacular, spectacular, spectacular, spectacular.

There have been three qb's in maybe the last 30 years that have been that spectacular for a rookie qb. Marino, Roth and Ryan. Thats pretty damn special company.

 

[CW_McGraw]

IIRC, Jim Plunkett had a promising rookie season, as did Vince Young. Dennis Shaw (Some of you older guys might remember him) won rookie of the year. But we forget the guys that go onto mediocrity.

 

[dlockz]

IIRC, Jim Plunkett had a promising rookie season, as did Vince Young. Dennis Shaw (Some of you older guys might remember him) won rookie of the year. But we forget the guys that go onto mediocrity.

Well lets explore Vince Young. He won rookie of the year but his qbing numbers were less than impressive. 12 tds 13 int 51 percent completions.
That is not excelling.

jim Plunkett was solid as a rookie 19 tds 16 int but had a qb rating of 68 as a rookie. definately nothing special

Dennis Shaw 10 tds 20 int nah he was mediocre from beginning


Now lets look at Matt Ryan 16 tds 11 int 3440 yards passing Qb rating of 87.7

These guys were not even close overall in thier rookie season but won rookie of the year. Ryan is on another level from these guys as rookies. Marino was the best rookie qb ever then prob Ryan and Roth.

 

[CW_McGraw]

Well lets explore Vince Young. He won rookie of the year but his qbing numbers were less than impressive. 12 tds 13 int 51 percent completions.
That is not excelling.

jim Plunkett was solid as a rookie 19 tds 16 int but had a qb rating of 68 as a rookie. definately nothing special

Dennis Shaw 10 tds 20 int nah he was mediocre from beginning

No offense, but I don't think either of us is old enough to make a serious judgment on how good Plunkett and Shaw actually were. For their era's, stats like that weren't that bad. Plunkett went on to a God awful Pats team that had the #1 pick the year before and was productive. If I could consult my dad about this, he'd probably agree that Shaw and Plunkett were both good rookie QBs and put up decent stats consideringnn the era they played in. Once again, I'm too young to actually judge.

Vince Young supposedly helped his team "win games," so that contribution as well as his great scrambling abilities factored in. I'm not ready to give up on Young yet really. He never had a decent enough supporting cast to help him, but then again his idea of pocket presence is checking his first read and running right.

 

[dlockz]

No offense, but I don't think either of us is old enough to make a serious judgment on how good Plunkett and Shaw actually were. For their era's, stats like that weren't that bad. Plunkett went on to a God awful Pats team that had the #1 pick the year before and was productive. If I could consult my dad about this, he'd probably agree that Shaw and Plunkett were both good rookie QBs and put up decent stats consideringnn the era they played in. Once again, I'm too young to actually judge.

Vince Young supposedly helped his team "win games," so that contribution as well as his great scrambling abilities factored in. I'm not ready to give up on Young yet really. He never had a decent enough supporting cast to help him, but then again his idea of pocket presence is checking his first read and running right.

Im 42 So I think Im old enough on Plunkett and the era of Shaw was not that far removed for me to understand that era of football. Plunkett showed promise at that point but was not as good as Ryan as a rookie. I will admit that during this era 68 rating was not awful but Staubach had a 100 rating that season and Bob Griese a 90.

I agree though its difficult to compare era's with qb's but 48 percent completions is not good.

 

[romio]

this is a grear question
and im being honest,,,,jake long
any qb with enough time will be great......
that why left tackles are so imperative.
great post question though

 

[dlockz]

this is a grear question
and im being honest,,,,jake long
any qb with enough time will be great......
that why left tackles are so imperative.
great post question though

I dont agree that any Qb with time will be great,
Trent Dilfer was passable in Balt but not great

left tackle is much easier to find than a top qb.

 

[tay0365]

Who are these Atlanta Falcon wr's with "skill and experience" as you put it? Ill give you Roddy White. The only thing Michael Jenkins has experience at is sucking. Laurent Robinson? They had no receiving threat at TE last year. That wr core is nowhere near as good as you make it sound.

It was good, not great, but good enough, can you think of a better receiver Marino had his 1st year better then Roddy White...

Duper- Not yet established
Clayton-Rookie, and learning the Position
Jimmy Cefalo- Not really, maybe good for a bomb or 2
Duriel Harris- Kind of inconsistant
Vince Heflin- LOL..no
Jim Jenson- I did like Jenson a lot, but he was more of a 3rd down receiver, and was not used until 84


Marino had less to start with then Ryan< including RB.

 

[ZachThomas76]

It was good, not great, but good enough, can you think of a better receiver Marino had his 1st year better then Roddy White...

Duper- Not yet established
Clayton-Rookie, and learning the Position
Jimmy Cefalo- Not really, maybe good for a bomb or 2
Duriel Harris- Kind of inconsistant
Vince Heflin- LOL..no
Jim Jenson- I did like Jenson a lot, but he was more of a 3rd down receiver, and was not used until 84


Marino had less to start with then Ryan< including RB.

What does Marino have to do with the Falcons wr's? I dont agree their wr core as a whole is good. Roddy White is good, the rest nothing special at this point. Throw in an average receiving TE, and I think Matt Ryan did quite well with what he had to work with. We can agree to disagree.

 

[Vaark]

I don't think anyone is denying the great year Ryan had, especially in the vaccuum of rookie QB performances regardless of relative supporting casts and difficulty of schedules. What some of us are merely maintaining is that it's too soon to extrapolate that out and declare he's a franchise QB. Again, Long was the appropriate pick for us based on the almost equal hit/miss ratio of top 10 drafted QBs, Ryan's almost equal number of Ints to TDs after his first senior game... and our need to get the first pick right. Certainly what Ryan accomplished was exceptional but not unprecedented. Doug Williams was quantitatively rated as the 4th most impressive SB QB (link follows). Using the same logic, he should have been expected to put up SB level stats the following years, and returned to the Big Dance.. but of course he didn't. It's too soon to anoint Ryan as anything other than a "1 Year Wonder." Those of us whose thought processes empirically gravitate to Long are not necessarily all homers but more so are pragmatists.

SB QB Evals:
http://www.nfl.com/fantasy/story?id=09000d5d80e6061c&template=with-video-with-comments&confirm=true

 

[ZachThomas76]

I don't think anyone is denying the great year Ryan had, especially in the vaccuum of rookie QB performances regardless of relative supporting casts and difficulty of schedules. What some of us are merely maintaining is that it's too soon to extrapolate that out and declare he's a franchise QB. Again, Long was the appropriate pick for us based on the almost equal hit/miss ratio of top 10 drafted QBs, Ryan's almost equal number of Ints to TDs after his first senior game... and our need to get the first pick right. Certainly what Ryan accomplished was exceptional but not unprecedented. Doug Williams was quantitatively rated as the 4th most impressive SB QB (link follows). Using the same logic, he should have been expected to put up SB level stats the following years, and returned to the Big Dance.. but of course he didn't. It's too soon to anoint Ryan as anything other than a "1 Year Wonder." Those of us whose thought processes empirically gravitate to Long are not necessarily all homers but more so are pragmatists.

SB QB Evals:
http://www.nfl.com/fantasy/story?id=09000d5d80e6061c&template=with-video-with-comments&confirm=truehttp://www.nfl.com/fantasy/story?id=09000d5d80e6061c&template=with-video-with-comments&confirm=true

I dont understand your statement about what Ryan did after his first senior game. Secondly, td/int ratio isnt how you scout a college qb, otherwise Timmy Chang would be ripping up the NFL right now.

 

[dlockz]

I don't think anyone is denying the great year Ryan had, especially in the vaccuum of rookie QB performances regardless of relative supporting casts and difficulty of schedules. What some of us are merely maintaining is that it's too soon to extrapolate that out and declare he's a franchise QB. Again, Long was the appropriate pick for us based on the almost equal hit/miss ratio of top 10 drafted QBs, Ryan's almost equal number of Ints to TDs after his first senior game... and our need to get the first pick right. Certainly what Ryan accomplished was exceptional but not unprecedented. Doug Williams was quantitatively rated as the 4th most impressive SB QB (link follows). Using the same logic, he should have been expected to put up SB level stats the following years, and returned to the Big Dance.. but of course he didn't. It's too soon to anoint Ryan as anything other than a "1 Year Wonder." Those of us whose thought processes empirically gravitate to Long are not necessarily all homers but more so are pragmatists.

SB QB Evals:
http://www.nfl.com/fantasy/story?id=09000d5d80e6061c&template=with-video-with-comments&confirm=true

One game superbowl success is quite differant than a rookie season success. Many times a qb can play well in a superbowl and never have similar success. The rariity of a qb playing as well as Ryan is very unique in the NFL. Since the advent of the superbowl outside of Marino, Roth and Ryan there is not much at that level.

There is much less precedent in what Ryan did as a rookie compared to what Long did as a rookie. Almost every year there is a stud LT that excels while about an average of maybe once per decade does a Qb come in and play like Ryan as a rookie.

 

[NHPhinRida]

long

 

[jlfin]

Some of you are seemingly relating Matt Ryan to Joe Flacco. There has been argument of Ryan's rookie season as being one of the best ever for a QB.

Jake Long was a terrific pick, but if Matt Ryan ends up being great there is no question he is more valuable.


ps: the question never mentioned Chad Henne stop bringing him up

No, you can't have this discussion without bringing up Henne. Obviously, if the front office DID NOT think Henne had the potential of a franchise QB, they likely would have drafted Ryan.
They obviously had (have) a lot of confidence in Henne. Hence the Jake Long pick.
BTW, Ryan had a very solid (not spectacular) rookie season. Dan Marino had a SPECTACULAR rookie season (he carried the offense). Ryan did not.
I wouldn't put Ryan in Canton just yet. :rolleyes2:

 

[dlockz]

No, you can't have this discussion without bringing up Henne. Obviously, if the front office DID NOT think Henne had the potential of a franchise QB, they likely would have drafted Ryan.
They obviously had (have) a lot of confidence in Henne. Hence the Jake Long pick.
BTW, Ryan had a very solid (not spectacular) rookie season. Dan Marino had a SPECTACULAR rookie season (he carried the offense). Ryan did not.
I wouldn't put Ryan in Canton just yet. :rolleyes2:

I wouldnt put Long or Ryan in canton yet. I like Henne but being that we risked not getting Henne thats not a clear sign that we felt Henne was a franchise prospect, not to mention we drafted another friggin qb this year so who knows. I do know that Ryan had one of the three best rookie qb seasons ever and thats pretty special