More analysis that Matt Ryan, not Jake Long, should’ve been the pick in 2008 | Page 5 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

More analysis that Matt Ryan, not Jake Long, should’ve been the pick in 2008

TedSlimmJr said:
Did Jake Long have a pro-bowl caliber season in 2011, and did Matt Ryan have a pro-bowl caliber season in 2011.... that's the first point of contention.
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No Long did not and he didn't have one in 2010 either!
 
TedSlimmJr said:
We'll get to all that in a bit.


The first question is did Jake Long have a pro-bowl worthy season in 2011, and did Matt Ryan have a pro-bowl worthy season in 2011.

It's critical that this get cleared up so as hit-and-run talking points are no longer allowed to stir up this debate over and over again.
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The answer to that would be "no" and "no" imo.

Rodgers, Brees, Stafford, Romo, Newton...there is 5 QBs in the NFC that deserved to be there more than Ryan. An argument could be made for Alex Smith as well over Ryan considering he led the 49ers to a 13-3 record.
 
AdamC13 said:
The answer to that would be "no" and "no" imo.

Rodgers, Brees, Stafford, Romo, Newton...there is 5 QBs in the NFC that deserved to be there more than Ryan. An argument could be made for Alex Smith as well over Ryan considering he led the 49ers to a 13-3 record.
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Well, the reason Matt Ryan didn't make the pro-bowl in 2011 is because 2 quarterbacks in the NFC both threw for over 5,000+ yards in 2011. This had only happened twice before in the history of the NFL.... Marino in '84 and Brees in '08.

Two more NFC QB's almost broke the 5,000 yard mark in Eli Manning and Aaron Rodgers. The only reason Rodgers didn't break it too was because he didn't play in the last game of the regular season. Eli missed it by 67 yards.

In 99% of the seasons in NFL history, Matt Ryan's 2011 season was easily, easily a pro-bowl worthy season. Easily. A lock.



Who is Jake Long's competition for pro-bowls in the AFC at left tackle? Would you agree that it's easier for a left tackle to make the pro-bowl in the AFC, than it is for quarterbacks in the NFC, where you have Brees, Rodgers, Eli Manning, Michael Vick, Matthew Stafford, Jay Cutler, Tony Romo, etc.... along with Kurt Warner and Brett Favre the first 2 years Matt Ryan was in the league before they retired? Don't you think that a season in the NFC for a quarterback has to be of virtually historical proportions or you'll miss out?

There's more tackle spots OPEN to pro-bowls than there is to quarterbacks to begin with.

There is no case to be made for Alex Smith's 3,144 yards, 17 TD's, 5 INT's, and 90.7 QB rating. It's absurd.


Furthermore, you can't use record as an argument for Alex Smith, and throw record out the window to discredit Matt Ryan's season and give it to Cam Newton, who had 6 wins. You're contradicting your own argument again.
 
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flynryan15 said:
Long sat out the Buffalo game Bush had over 200yds and the line as a unit had its best game of the year. How is that?
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You are talking about Buffalo...they gave up 4.8 ypr and 19 TD for the year. There is good reason they invested so heavily in the DL in FA. Dolphins OL had best game of year or just went up against a piss-poor defense?

I don't think anyone would argue that Long had a pro bowl year in 2011...he sat out then entire preseason with a leg injury and clearly was no where close to 100% and ended the year with a bicep injury. To judge Long as not a pro bowl type player based on an injury plagued year doesn't make much sense.
 
AdamC13 said:
You are talking about Buffalo...they gave up 4.8 ypr and 19 TD for the year. There is good reason they invested so heavily in the DL in FA. Dolphins OL had best game of year or just went up against a piss-poor defense?

I don't think anyone would argue that Long had a pro bowl year in 2011...he sat out then entire preseason with a leg injury and clearly was no where close to 100% and ended the year with a bicep injury. To judge Long as not a pro bowl type player based on an injury plagued year doesn't make much sense.
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How about the last New England game, we couldn't get a first down then Long goes out and we explode for 17 points. No one is judging Long based on injury what we are saying is often times the Probowl is a popularity contest or name recognition especially when it comes to lineman.
 
AdamC13 said:
You are talking about Buffalo...they gave up 4.8 ypr and 19 TD for the year. There is good reason they invested so heavily in the DL in FA. Dolphins OL had best game of year or just went up against a piss-poor defense?

I don't think anyone would argue that Long had a pro bowl year in 2011...he sat out then entire preseason with a leg injury and clearly was no where close to 100% and ended the year with a bicep injury. To judge Long as not a pro bowl type player based on an injury plagued year doesn't make much sense.
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So Jake Long having durability issues is essentially your argument here, correct? He had them at Michigan too.

If Matt Ryan had durability issues and not be as dependable as he's been, would that be one of your main points to sling mud at him?

Jake Long missed the last 3 games of the season and Miami went 2-1 in those games.... with only loss being a 3 point loss to the Patriots... who played in the Superbowl.

Matt Ryan missed one series against Detroit because of a sprained ankle, and the offense couldn't even muster a first down without him. He went to the locker room for X-Rays, came right back in and threw a TD pass to Harry Douglass on his first drive back on his way to leading Atlanta to a 23-16 win over Detroit... a playoff team.

I don't think there's any question that Atlanta could've beaten Detroit in the 1st round of the playoffs had they gotten that draw instead of the eventual superbowl champions. Aaron Rodgers and Alex Smith also lost to that same Giants team in the playoffs.
 
At least everyone seems ready to admit that Jake Long's 2011 pro-bowl selection was undeserving and nothing more than a useless talking point. We're almost ready to move on to the next point of contention.

But before we do, one last post on the topic. Duane Brown is the guy that deserved the AFC pro-bowl nod at left tackle. He gave up 0 sacks in 2011 and was the key cog to the best run blocking line in the National Football League.
 
TedSlimmJr said:
Well, the reason Matt Ryan didn't make the pro-bowl in 2011 is because 2 quarterbacks in the NFC both threw for over 5,000+ yards in 2011. This had only happened twice before in the history of the NFL.... Marino in '84 and Brees in '08.

Two more NFC QB's almost broke the 5,000 yard mark in Eli Manning and Aaron Rodgers. The only reason Rodgers didn't break it too was because he didn't play in the last game of the regular season. Eli missed it by 67 yards.

In 99% of the seasons in NFL history, Matt Ryan's 2011 season was easily, easily a pro-bowl worthy season. Easily. A lock.



Who is Jake Long's competition for pro-bowls in the AFC at left tackle? Would you agree that it's easier for a left tackle to make the pro-bowl in the AFC, than it is for quarterbacks in the NFC, where you have Brees, Rodgers, Eli Manning, Michael Vick, Matthew Stafford, Jay Cutler, Tony Romo, etc.... along with Kurt Warner and Brett Favre the first 2 years Matt Ryan was in the league before they retired? Don't you think that a season in the NFC for a quarterback has to be of virtually historical proportions or you'll miss out?

There's more tackle spots OPEN to pro-bowls than there is to quarterbacks to begin with.

There is no case to be made for Alex Smith's 3,144 yards, 17 TD's, 5 INT's, and 90.7 QB rating. It's absurd.


Furthermore, you can't use record as an argument for Alex Smith, and throw record out the window to discredit Matt Ryan's season and give it to Cam Newton, who had 6 wins. You're contradicting your own argument again.
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Ryan's 2011 numbers weren't more worthy than 5 other NFC QBs in 2011.
In 2010 Rodgers, Vick and Freeman put up numbers more worthy of pro bowl consideration than Ryan in 2011.
In 2009 Brees, Favre, Rodgers, Romo, Warner and Manning all put up numbers more worthy of the pro bowl than Ryan in 2011.
In 2008 Warner, Brees and Rodgers all put up pro bowl numbers more worthy than Ryan in 2011.

99%...please. Ryan's numbers last year weren't worthy of making the last 4 pro bowls. Since the NFL hasn't been around for 400 years that would be an overstatement.

Considering that SF went from 6-10 in 2010 to 13-3 in 2011, Carolina went 2-14 in 2010 to 6-10 in 2011, while Atlanta went from 13-3 in 2010 to 10-6 in 2011 when Ryan was presented a gift by the name of Julio Jones to go along with an already stellar offensive cast I would say the record argument is worthy of consideration.

Alex Smith/49ers +7 wins in 2011, Cam Newton/Carolina +4 wins in 2011, Matt Ryan/Atlanta -3 wins in 2011. No contradiction there.
 
AdamC13 said:
Ryan's 2011 numbers weren't more worthy than 5 other NFC QBs in 2011.
In 2010 Rodgers, Vick and Freeman put up numbers more worthy of pro bowl consideration than Ryan in 2011.
In 2009 Brees, Favre, Rodgers, Romo, Warner and Manning all put up numbers more worthy of the pro bowl than Ryan in 2011.
In 2008 Warner, Brees and Rodgers all put up pro bowl numbers more worthy than Ryan in 2011.

99%...please. Ryan's numbers last year weren't worthy of making the last 4 pro bowls. Since the NFL hasn't been around for 400 years that would be an overstatement.

Considering that SF went from 6-10 in 2010 to 13-3 in 2011, Carolina went 2-14 in 2010 to 6-10 in 2011, while Atlanta went from 13-3 in 2010 to 10-6 in 2011 when Ryan was presented a gift by the name of Julio Jones to go along with an already stellar offensive cast I would say the record argument is worthy of consideration.

Alex Smith/49ers +7 wins in 2011, Cam Newton/Carolina +4 wins in 2011, Matt Ryan/Atlanta -3 wins in 2011. No contradiction there.
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Would you agree that it's a lot more difficult to make the pro-bowl in the NFC as a quarterback, as opposed to the left tackle position in the AFC? It's a yes or no answer.

What was Atlanta's record the year before Matt Ryan arrived? I'll give you a hint, they had the #3 overall pick in the draft. What was their record when Ryan helped them to the playoffs as a rookie?

Alex Smith didn't make the 49ers a playoff team, Jim Harbaugh did. He's the difference.

You're somehow spinning your argument into a case to support a quarterback who's been a colossal bust as the #1 overall pick for 7 years in an attempt to discredit one of the best rookie quarterbacks, and one of the best 4 seasons to begin a career for a quarterback in the history of the league.

Your logic fails.
 
TedSlimmJr said:
Would you agree that it's a lot more difficult to make the pro-bowl in the NFC as a quarterback, as opposed to the left tackle position in the AFC? It's a yes or no answer.

What was Atlanta's record the year before Matt Ryan arrived? I'll give you a hint, they had the #3 overall pick in the draft. What was their record when Ryan helped them to the playoffs as a rookie?

Alex Smith didn't make the 49ers a playoff team, Jim Harbaugh did. He's the difference.

You're somehow spinning your argument into a case to support a quarterback who's been a colossal bust as the #1 overall pick for 7 years in an attempt to discredit one of the best rookie quarterbacks, and one of the best 4 seasons to begin a career for a quarterback in the history of the league.

Your logic fails.
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So you declared that Ryan's numbers would make the pro bowl in 99% of NFL years and I showed that his numbers weren't even worthy of making the pro bowl the last 4 years. And I am spinning the argument?

I get it, I have seen the way you respond to anyone that doesn't agree with your opinions and tell you how smart you. Your ego appears to get bruised rather easily and you go on the attic. You confuse your opinions with facts. When facts are pointed out in direct contradiction to your opinion your only defense is to say I am "absurd" or "spinning" my argument or my "logic fails."

Kettle meet pot.

I don't need or intend to be drawn along in some insane stream of "yes or no" questions until you think you have trapped me and proven your point. I was responding to a question of whether Ryan had a pro bowl worthy year last year and my answer is "NO" as there were 5 QBs that clearly were better than him in the NFC imo and an argument could even be made for Smith. If you don't like my HONEST answer to the question okay...I agree to disagree, but I am not changing my answer.
 
AdamC13 said:
So you declared that Ryan's numbers would make the pro bowl in 99% of NFL years and I showed that his numbers weren't even worthy of making the pro bowl the last 4 years. And I am spinning the argument?

I get it, I have seen the way you respond to anyone that doesn't agree with your opinions and tell you how smart you. Your ego appears to get bruised rather easily and you go on the attic. You confuse your opinions with facts. When facts are pointed out in direct contradiction to your opinion your only defense is to say I am "absurd" or "spinning" my argument or my "logic fails."

Kettle meet pot.

I don't need or intend to be drawn along in some insane stream of "yes or no" questions until you think you have trapped me and proven your point. I was responding to a question of whether Ryan had a pro bowl worthy year last year and my answer is "NO" as there were 5 QBs that clearly were better than him in the NFC imo and an argument could even be made for Smith. If you don't like my HONEST answer to the question okay...I agree to disagree, but I am not changing my answer.
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I didn't dispute the fact that 4 QB's in the NFC last year had better season's, and more pro-bowl worthy seasons than Matt Ryan. In fact, I pointed out how historically good those seasons were, and had to be in order to be better than Matt Ryan's season. Brees, Rodgers, Eli Manning, and Matthew Stafford.

However, 5 QB's in the NFC being more pro-bowl worthy is simply baseless. You try to make an argument for Alex Smith based on team record, despite his numbers not even being close to Matt Ryan's. In the same breath, you discredit record in an attempt to blow Ryan's season off again in order to put Cam Newton's season ahead of him. You're picking and choosing which is relevant to the discussion and spin it to fit your angle.

The logic to pump up Alex Smith, who's been a colossal bust for 7 years, is nothing more than desperation find anything to prevent you from acknowledging that Matt Ryan is a good NFL quarterback. If it was Alex Smith Miami had passed on in favor of Jake Long, you'd be making my argument for Matt Ryan and against Alex Smith. You're not being honest... you're too intelligent for this stance to be an honest one.

Get the numbers here for the pro-bowl NFC quarterbacks in 2008, 2009, 2010, and any other year to prove that Matt Ryan's 2011 season wouldn't have been pro-bowl worthy in those years.

I'll start you off with some help... Josh Freeman's 2010 season was essentially the same as Matt Ryan's 2011 season. The difference is that Matt Ryan is consistently good. Josh Freeman is either above average or abysmal.
 
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