dolphinlifer
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Rose colored glasses stain your eyes.
Those that want Gase fired
- Thread starter Tannchise
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Rose colored glasses stain your eyes.
So does moving forward without a plan.
I figure any new coach gets 3 years to implement his system with his guys, Year 1 expect a 4 to 6 win season with our roster, year 2 a 8 to 9 win season 3 expect a 10 win season. I thought Gase was not the guy when we hired him last year but last seasons record with our roster gave me most hope since Shula left. This year I can live with where we are at so far. The defense is a complete rebuild with a new DC and somehow we have won 4 games with an inept offense. Thats coaching folks at least so far even with this last blowout.
I don't want Gase fired but I want him held accountable for their play. Those of you watching them through rose colored glasses should stop drinking kook-aid and face the fact they are a very bad team right now, probably as bad as I have seen them and the record is misleading although stats are not. I hope our offense puts it together next week against the Raiders and we go on a run but I personally think it may get worse before it gets better. Let's hope we have our coach do what he has flashed on occasion and right the ship.
dolphinlifer
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I've stated my plan many times, we had a very competent head coach but he wasn't fancy enough for some people and did a much better job with much less coaching experience but much more real experience. It's really not that complicated, gase has shown nothing but incompetence, and we had a coach who showed 75% competency. All this nonsense that has come from gase is really just incompetence, everything stems from him. You never saw any of these rampant problems under Campbell, you saw it where he was handcuffed with lazor but none of this nonsense came up with him. If there was a problem he would handle it, he certainly wouldn't wait a year and a half of it going on only to whine about it. Once you get somebody competent in there, you will see a lot of these rampant problems very not magically dissapear.
People try to turn it into this giant equation to try and hide blame from where it belongs when its very simple, all the team problems come from the head coach, because there is certainly not a lack of overall talent on either side of the ball. It's very simple, Gase is the problem but nobody wants to admit that because they propped him up so hard and don't want to look bad, they would rather us keep losing then look bad. It's amazing how much a fantasy world these coaches live in where they feel so safe with their job despite putting out endlessly trash performances, it's not different than players just coming to work to pick up a check and nothing more.
This is why I always favor guys with real experience because coaches much like managers in the real world have no actual idea how the business is run, having to constantly ask their employees what to do while they sit in their fancy office doing none of the work and collecting the big checks all because they're part of the system.
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Possibly, but maybe the broken glasses have blurred your vision, let's look less at opinions and more at facts ...
we're ahead: Jets, Chargers, Broncos, Raiders, Bengals, Browns, Texans, Colts
we're tied: Titans, Jaguars
we're behind: Patriots, Chiefs, Bills
Sooooooooo, the coach is tied for 4th best record in the AFC after posting a 10 win playoff rookie season where he was expected to win 6 or less, and you wanna fire him because you think he's doing a bad job? Ummm ... come on now, good does not equal pretty. And pretty does not equal good.
The BEST team in the AFC is only 1 game ahead of us ... I'm not sure what your expectations were for a turnaround from the Philbin years, but you might want to define them, because without that we don't have a reasonable point of reference for a discussion. I'll give you mine.
For me, it's simple, I needed a 9-7 record with a 4-2 record in the AFC East. Because, I believe that to have prolonged success you need to win within your division, because that can be replicated. We exceeded that in Gase's first year, and honestly, when Tannehill went down, I wasn't sure whether we could get there this year. But, we've managed games, won the close ones, and are on course for a 9 win season while using our 3rd string QB and generating almost no offense. Personally, I'm giving a lot of praise to Gase, because I don't think we're doing it on talent alone.
Now, why don't you give your criteria (not just general opinions) about what you would consider being a success this year.
dolphinlifer
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Nice retort with the glasses thing, that was smooth as butter.
I have many times mentioned what success would be for gase and it has nothing to do with numbers. I would much rather Gase go 3-15 this year and show me some improvement in his play calling, in his talent management/recognition and his decision making and now his handling of the team. Our record is not any indication of how good we are because nobody has any real answers of what is going on what this team other than Gase. There are all these excuses whether its the players not studying or the oline or the qbs and only one person controls all of these meaning he has had 1 1/2 years to change these things and has never done that, what does that tell you? If you had not fixed all the leaky pipes, mowed the lawn or simply kept your house clean would you blame your kids and say it's your guys fault?
Sparano and Philbin teams always had the exact same excuses for why they were sucking, it was never the blatant things they were doing wrong, it was always this excuse or that excuse or the other excuse, any excuse people could find to protect the obvious problem from getting changed because they didn't want to look bad after they had supported somebody for so long. It was always this record means we're x in this schedule which means we're y team, that whole parcells quote "you are what your record says you are" is complete bs. You can pretty easily sum up who is a real team and who isn't if you pay attention to them for a decent amount of time, regardless of record. How many times have people complained "we don't get respect?" You see it pop up every time we have a decent record, but those who aren't bias and don't wear rose colored glasses see how obviously bad our team has been for decades. How long did it take other teams fans and the announcers to mock us the last couple of games with how obvious of a mess this team is?
Nobody respects us because they know how much of a fraud our teams have been for decades. What is the most common theme around this team whenever our fans think we are good? We barely beat or get run over all the time by bad teams and barely ever beat good teams. If we can't do in in the regular season, how are we ever going to do it in the playoffs when quality of teams and coaches are magnified that much more? We aren't. How good are the jets and ravens this year? The jets couldn't stop the run vs anybody but us and the ravens went from a busted up 3-4 team who couldn't throw or run it to one that looked like they were good at both and slaughtered us. Why is it such a coincidence that us losing to bad teams badly or barely beating them is a common thing? It's not a coincidence, gase coaches scared and plays down to every bad team he comes across. The reason we won against the falcons is their players said they went to safe mode in the second half and had nothing but scripted plays and Gase for the first time in forever actually was somewhat aggressive ONLY because of the opponent he was facing, he always plays down to his opponent. That is the definition of a loser mentality that will never breed a consistent winning culture because we are only ever as good as each team we face with that mindset.
Look at the bengals, they have had a LOT of winning seasons with marvin lewis, and have never, not ONCE, won ONE playoff game, not ONCE in how many years? The bengals are known for being a zoo where the players run the joint and marvin lewis has no morals in who he brings in as long as they have talent. That is why they never win anything that matters, because they have no character. This is exactly why I harp on Gase's faults endlessly, I could care less about the record, because unless you actually fix the problems, the team is never going to be a real quality team, all we will ever be is a regular season joke under gase if he doesn't change. Records mean nothing as to showing you how good a team actually is, what is going on with that team tells you everything about who the team actually is. A team has to actually have character to be a good team and be a consistent real winning quality team that can win against good teams and in the playoffs when it matters. Right now we have none simply because the coach has zero idea how to lead and we haven't had a real leader since Dan Marino.
Why is it so hard for gase to handle all of these things right when he got here instead of letting them go on for a year and a half? It isn't, just like it wasn't hard for him to get rid of the twins or it wasn't hard for him to get aggressive and stop playing down to teams or his handling of talent by ever giving them a chance ala never with caroo until last game and all of a sudden the first time he gets actual consistent targets he does a good job, SHOCKING! Gase's faults are exactly what is manifesting as this teams problems, until he fixes his faults we will always be a soft trash team because that is what he has created. It all comes directly from him, he is the one in charge of it all so he has to be held responsible for it, it is very simply 1+1=2.
All these reasons are exactly why I wanted Campbell, he was a real leader that led men, not only do you almost never find real leaders anymore in any part of society but especially not one with his intelligence for being such a tough guy and jock. When he came on board, he completely changed Philbin's culture of never ending lethargy, carelessness, and losing throughout the players and coaching, and the team did a complete 180 and we went from the worst team in the league to a good team, in ONE game, ONE. Philbin couldn't do that in 4 years, Campbell did it in ONE game. It's funny because so many people on here say Campbell can't do this or that or doesn't have the experience, etc. You want to know who really respected Campbell and had the most praise and respect for his team he hadn't showed since Saban's defense was clicking which is also one of the guys he respects a lot? The guy everybody around here says is such a great coach, Bill Belicheck. BB knew what so many around here were so blind to see yet is extremely hilarious because they are so quick to praise BB and criticize Campbell when BB is the one that had the most praise for Campbell of any coach since Saban here, talk about irony. If that doesn't tell you the difference between Campbell and Philbin, nothing will, and so far gase has shown all the same exact signs philbin did that he was a terrible coach.
Philbin's zombie personality turned the team into zombies, they were never ready, always started slow, and seemingly didn't care every game and only ever won anything on talent, always lost to or barely beat bad teams, etc. When Campbell came on, the teams personality instantly changed from zombies to players with fervent energy and desire to physically dominate and crush the other team. They always started fast under Campbell, always seemed to care about every game despite being forced trash lazor on them by the FO. Campbell knew he had good talent, and definitely some holes too, although he had much less talent than gase. We crushed teams we were supposed to, we couldn't beat the texans ever, we crushed them, and we dominated teams physically to the point where they complained about us being "too phyiscal." We also competed against teams we shouldn't have beaten while being handcuffed with trash lazor. You will never hear of Gase's teams being too physical, the guys zombie personality absolutely transfers to the team. They figure if he doesn't care, why should we? They know from experience if your coach isn't with you you're not winning anything in this league.
This is why I want Gase fired now, I have supported and put up with him long enough and seen the endless signs of why his team will never be quality. Simply because he refuses to change and continues placing blame elsewhere, remind you of anybody? How many people did Philbin throw under the bus to try and save himself? I tried to be accepting of them choosing Gase over Campbell because I'm pro Dolphins and figured if Gase was all the things they said he was it was possible he could do really good too. I really wanted Campbell because I knew he was a rare gem that would build us into a dominant team for a long time and he represented real Dolphins football, not the fancy stuff that has never worked here. People were just too bias to see it or couldn't see it because they haven't learned to recognize the signs yet even though we'd been privy to learning them for 8 years previous, at least. Now we are seeing the same signs all over again and asking the same questions as if we haven't been given the answers time and time again already.
I will no longer support somebody I know is going to continue to fail badly if he doesn't change, I will only support his firing now because I believe he has been given far too much time to change, proving that he never will most likely. I'm not willing to support gase for a couple more years knowing that the likelihood of him changing is about 5% if he hasn't done so already. I've seen this 8 years previous and a 95% possible chance of failure isn't worth a couple more years of my favorite team being dragged through the mud.
I will only support a Campbell hiring now because I don't know of any candidate even remotely close to as good as him to coach our team. Regardless of his status, I am not a complete fool and understand that no matter where quality comes from it's quality, you don't need a title to prove that or to be thankful for it. I've learned in life you don't look a gift horse in the mouth and spit at it, karma doesn't shine well on you for doing that, trust me.
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dnespins
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come on man...none of the QBs have anything to do with dumbing down the offense. its the skill guys that dont know the checks/auds, option routes, blitz pickups etc.
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Thank you for replying with your analysis. While I asked for metrics, you at least fleshed out your opinions. This provides room for discussion, so thanks.
When you said "Our record is not any indication of how good we are" I hope you meant to say that you didn't think it provided the best indication ... because obviously it is a rather universal indication used by the NFL and teams in assessing how good teams are. As I mentioned in a previous post, I somewhat agree with the famous coach saying of "you are what your record says you are" because of so many people thinking their team is better than their record. But at the end of the day, there is one metric that measures achievement and this is it ... a team's record.
The rest of that first paragraph is your opinion and preferences, which seem reasonable to me. Not sure I'm onboard with going 3-15, as that generally results in the coaching staff being swept away and no chance of improvement, but I get your point. For you it is improved production on the field and teambuilding in a more general nebulous way, rather than the results of that production.
Your second paragraph talks about excuses coaches made. I don't disagree with you, but I would characterize those as excuses for a poor record. You didn't hear those excuses constantly when we tied the Patriots for a share of the AFC East Division Crown under Sparano ... you heard a lot more talk about how this was only the beginning, when in fact, it was only an aberration. Still, no usable metrics here.
In your third paragraph you talk about other people's opinions when you say "Nobody respects us because they know how much of a fraud our teams have been for decades." That's not really a metric either. But I get what you're trying to express there, that other teams' evaluations of us as a threat to have a good record are low because our production on the field is low. That seems like your basis for calling the Dolphins a "fraud". So you keep alluding to production ... but you don't want to use wins as a measure of production. Are there more specific stats that you would prefer to use? Obviously it's not scoring more points than the other team during 60 minutes of playing time, so maybe Total Yardage for the season, or Total Points, or trending of some other aspects? I'm looking for a quantification of "good" vs. "bad" to determine where each of us stands. Obviously we both want "improvement" but it would be nice to be able to quantify what that means to each of us.
Paragraphs 4-10 of your response are your opinions, and I thank you for those. There are plenty of logical thoughts in there, and room for both agreement and disagreement I think. But ultimately, it seems you are set on your opinion and not really open to anything that might change your opinion. Fair enough. That disappoints me, as you're obviously a passionate fan. I would like to see you have an avenue to happiness while watching the Dolphins, but I'm struggling to see what that would look like for you.
If I can offer one olive branch of hope, it would be that we can look at each coach's track records and get a good indication of ability. Gase has obviously had success in other places, including with Tebow in Denver and Cutler in Chicago, so I have hope he can make us work too. Here in Miami, Gase had a very rough first third of the season, going 1-4 in his first 5 games, and I think we can all agree that the one win (at Miami vs. Cleveland) was probably our most depressing performance, particularly from what seems like the perspective you embrace. But, despite looking like complete and utter junk those first 5 games, we became a pretty solid team after that, and finished the season strong. So, there is still the very real possibility that we get it together under Cutler and start performing significantly better on offense. Plus, the defense has shown signs of life. Remember, of the 40 points we gave up to Baltimore, Matt Moore gave them 14 of those, so even with our offense constantly punting and never sustaining drives, our defensive failure was only 26 points, far better than the 40 that the scoreboard showed.
It's tough being a Dolphins fan, I realize that. I've lived that since the Marino years. The recent OL production, followed by the OL coaching fiasco, and continued horrid OL production has really been hard to watch. Cutler has an adjustment period, particularly having missed so much of the early preseason, so maybe things can start to click for him. We do have talent along the OL, so I am hoping it can get better. But, I definitely see your point about how terrible it is right now, and how that impacts your opinion of our coaching staff. But, please don't give up just yet. One thing about the Dolphins, they are unpredictable, and just when you least expect it, BAM!, they inexplicably play well. While we may disagree on our assessment of the team and coach, I'm happy to hear your analysis. Thanks.
gofins60
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I really don't know if Campbell was the answer. They played well for him for a few games, then went back to crap. (That could be due to Lazor and a lot of below-average players though.)
But, I have a real problem with Miami wanting to run the "fancy" stuff. Sparano's team was competitive with a good defense, but couldn't score enough points on offense to win consistently. Why? From 2000-2012 Miami refused to use high draft picks on offensive playmaker positions (QB, WR, RB, and TE). They drafted only 3 players at those positions in the 1st round (Ted Ginn Jr, Ronnie Brown, and Ryan Tannehill), and only 8 or 9 players total in the first 3 rounds. They moved the ball well between the 20s but would get bogged down in the red zone due to a lack of offensive talent, so they had to settle for FGs instead of scoring TDs.
Here is where the current situation started. Rather than get a new GM (at the least) who would find offensive talent, Ross hired Philbin; a guy who disliked physical football (uh... isn't football a physical sport?) and the running game. The installment of his fancy offensive philosophy turned the offense into a one-dimensional, short pass dink-and-dunk, easily defended hot steaming mess with an o-line that gave up the most sacks over a 4 year period. And, Philbin and Coyle also neutered that good defense and turned it into a joke that couldn't stop the run to save their lives. Today, they have Gase; another Philbin who wants a fancy finesse offense, and publicly admitted that he had to tell his OC to remind him to keep running the ball because he prefers the short pass. (Sherman had to tell Philbin the same thing. Their running game would be working, but Philbin would stop it.) Even worse, with no blocking from their pathetic o-line Gase keeps calling the same running plays even though Ajayi keeps getting hit in the backfield. This whole style of offense run by Philbin and Gase, their playcalling, and their o-line are garbage.
Go old-school; big, mean, nasty guys in the trenches. Build a dominating running game, and then add in a vertical passing game to keep defenses from concentrating on stopping the run and you'll have WAY more success than any team that Philbin or Gase put on the field. However, to do this Ross needs to do what he's always failed to do... clean house COMPLETELY!!!
Gase makes the playoffs his first year. Has his team at 4-3 in a tumultuous season that started with losing his starting QB in preseason. Was the sixth seed in the AFC playoffs 7 days ago.
And here Finheaven is debating who we will replace him with. Threads like these makes me wonder if Miami fans even deserve to have a winning team sometimes.
And here Finheaven is debating who we will replace him with. Threads like these makes me wonder if Miami fans even deserve to have a winning team sometimes.
Mike8272
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Honestly I’m not sure who I want at this point, but if we are looking for a new head coach because our front office decides to back the players that Gase has thrown under the bus rather than back Gase and move on from those players, then we need to hire someone that is going to be able to work with and utilise those players in a system that plays to their strengths.
I personally don’t think there’s an issue with Gase as our head coach. The problem is potentially that he wants to run a system but doesn’t really have the personnel to run it. When you have to simplify things eventually the rest of the league catches up. So either Gase needs to rethink what he wants to do and tweak the offense accordingly, or he sticks to his guns and forces the front office to get him the players he needs and let go of the players that don’t fit. The problem with the latter scenario is you need to believe Gase is “the guy”, and if there’s any doubt, you either move on from the head coach or push him to make those tweaks and use what he’s got (which I would argue would ultimately cost him his job if he’s not susceptible to change and committed to his system).
So as far as I’m concerned I don’t have a particular name in mind for Gase’s replacement. If he goes, they need to make sure they hire someone that schemes to their player’s strengths rather someone that’s set on running a specific scheme and tries to fit square pegs and in round holes.
Not even on my mind yet....let's see if he can learn from mistakes and actually fix what is broken?
3 years at a minimum....unless the coach totally loses the locker room....then all bets are off.
3 years at a minimum....unless the coach totally loses the locker room....then all bets are off.
Living in Eagle land now we are talking Wentz so a bit unfair, but this is also a 2nd year offense for many and they have 3 key new offensive players as 1st timers and they are the best offense in the league. So I just have trouble understanding what is so difficult. I would imagine Pedersons/Reids offensive system is likely more complex then what we are running.
As for a replacement if needed? As I have already stated, give me Schwartz
As for a replacement if needed? As I have already stated, give me Schwartz