Let's keep in mind some of those teams in front of us will fill their need for a QB in FA. And others (Jax,Cle,Min) might feel like it would be better to draft playmakers for their young, rookies.
Top 15 draft order as of 12/18/2011 - two games pending
- Thread starter datruth55
- Start date
hoops
Tua time!
**** me
cleveland now is in front of us likely for good and has the ammo of an extra 1st rounder to trade up if need be...
if its not luck or barkley i'd be looking to get sam bradford from st louis...he's better than freakin matt moore...he needs protection and weapons and health at this stage...he's more talented than any qb in this draft not named luck or barkley
cleveland now is in front of us likely for good and has the ammo of an extra 1st rounder to trade up if need be...
if its not luck or barkley i'd be looking to get sam bradford from st louis...he's better than freakin matt moore...he needs protection and weapons and health at this stage...he's more talented than any qb in this draft not named luck or barkley
hoops
Tua time!
how the hell you know that??? he looks like dog ****...and its a much bigger problem than the oline and wrs like some of these clueless cats want to believe...much bigger...he's scared ****less of contact yet won't get rid of the ball as soon as there's a hint of inside pressure his eyes go down he wants to bail every time laterally instead of climbing the pocket...i'm sorry but if you're a teammate of his and you see how much of a ***** he is on tape every week there's no way you get behind that guy...you might throw out some bull**** publicly but privately your all sayin this kid is not the guy...and the staff has to see it as well...the only thing thats saving jax from taking a qb is that new owner having no damn clue about the american game and players...and i guess thats possible...cause the tape BLOWS DICK
ckparrothead
Premium Member
They're not replacing Blaine Gabbert after his rookie year. Not while Gene Smith is their General Manager and last I checked he got a contract extension immediately upon agreement for Shahid Khan to buy the team. I don't care what you think of Gabbert. It doesn't matter. They're not replacing him.
hoops
Tua time!
well then that pick for jax needs to be de opposite mincey who can play...coples of unc...blackmons not getting there
ck just for exercise purposes you are staring at matt barkley as jax with your top pick your the gm you've seen a years worth of gabberts tape...you passing???
ck just for exercise purposes you are staring at matt barkley as jax with your top pick your the gm you've seen a years worth of gabberts tape...you passing???
It's not what you, I, or CK would do. It only matters what Gene Smith is going to do. He's not going to give up on a QB he drafted in the 1st round a year ago. They also traded up to get him. They have a lot of needs, WR being the biggest.
hoops
Tua time!
gene smith is gonna pull the rug over the owners eyes then...i feel bad for that foreign fella...he's gonna get took by smith...i agree that wr a big need but blackmons not getting to them so the next big need if its not damn qb which should be the top priority but i digress is pass rushing edge player or cb...after they win against indy week 17 i think its coples all the way
ckparrothead
Premium Member
I did a pretty in depth study of the strength of schedules, remaining opponents across the board, etc.
I think if Miami loses these next two, which they should, then we should expect them to pick #7 overall behind the Colts, Rams, Vikings, Jaguars, Browns and Buccaneers, most likely in that order.
There are some breaks Miami could catch that would put them higher. For instance if the Bucs somehow come away from the Panthers game with a victory, and then the Panthers get a victory in Week 17 from the Saints because the Saints know they're out of bye week contention, we could jump from #7 to #6 overall. If the Steelers know by Week 17 that they're out of AFC North division champion contention with the Ravens (who swept them in head to head) then they could start pulling their starters against the Browns and hand the Browns an unexpected victory. If that and the above Bucs/Panthers/Saints scenario all play out...then Miami could be picking #5.
But I wouldn't count on that. Essentially, we're already picking #8 overall because the Bucs and Panthers play one another next week and whichever one wins will get scooted behind us in the pecking order. I expect to be picking #7 overall once the Redskins find a way to win one more game, probably against the hapless Vikings. And I expect St. Louis to be picking #2 after the hapless Vikings find a win against the even-more-hapless Caleb Hanie/Nate Enderle/Josh McCown Bears.
The Bills could leap ahead of us on a Strength of Schedule tie, which would induce division tiebreakers, and since we swept them they'd get ahead of us.
But for that to happen, some combination of four of the following would need to happen:
Cardinals beat Bengals
Ravens beat Bengals
Browns beat Ravens
Browns beat Steelers
Texans beat Colts
Jaguars beat Titans
Texans beat Titans (double points)
The "(double points)" means that if the Titans beat the Texans in Week 17, then the Bills would need five of the other six outcomes to happen in their favor...in order to end up with a tiebreak over us.
And I just don't see that happening.
And even if Cleveland is picking ahead of us I don't see that big a deal. They could go after a QB in free agency or by trade. Mike Holmgren has to be feeling the pressure to win pretty soon. He's been there a couple of years and the team just seems to get worse. Colt McCoy was purely his call in the 3rd round and that's not panning out. Maybe he doesn't feel like he has the time for a young guy, especially a non-Luck young guy.
And let's say he doesn't take a veteran...I think he will end up taking Robert Griffin over Matt Barkley. Matt Barkley and Colt McCoy would be fast friends on that team (they already are acquaintances and Barkley lists McCoy as one of the people he'll speak to as he decides whether to come out or not) and that's not a good thing, because I sense a rift developing between the McCoy Family (his dad gets too involved, see BCS Championship Game) and the Browns especially over this whole concussion fiasco. Even before that, Colt has made some curious statements to the press about how he's been handled by the Browns since he's been there. Whoever they take in the 1st round isn't going to understudy Colt McCoy, IMO. He's going to understudy Seneca Wallace. And do you think Matt Barkley is more likely to gain valuable insight from understudying Seneca Wallace, or Robert Griffin III? If they have RG3 sitting behind Seneca then they don't have to change offenses according to who is going to play. They can feel free to get RG3 live reps at his own pace to get his feet wet, and they don't have to run anything special or unpredictable. He'll be learning the offense the way Seneca Wallace runs it, and that offense fits RG3 pretty well. Lots of screens, lots of short stuff, some quarterback movement, and then deep ball. I realize that the last QB that people saw Holmgren being successful with was Matt Hasselbeck, and that looks a little Matt Barkley-ish. But in Green Bay, where Holmgren won a championship, it was Brett Favre...and that's DEFINITELY more Robert Griffin-ish. That's what keeps drawing Holmgren to Seneca Wallace, and that's why he drafted McCoy who has wheels and ran a lot of spread-option at Texas.
Listen I like Matt Barkley and I know Slimm likes Matt Barkley and I know hoops you like him as well. But I don't think this pool of talking opinions is indicative of what you generally find out there about him. Just in the Universal Draft trio by itself, I like him, Simon hates him, and Richard is mixed but thinks he's probably worth a 1st rounder (but more toward the middle or bottom). THAT in my opinion is more indicative of what you find in the league as far as opinion on Barkley.
And this draft process is not made for a Matt Barkley. He's a guy that goes out and wins you football games, takes control of a huddle, leads players, operates an offense and hits you with superb accuracy and fundamentals. He's not going to raise any eyebrows when he gets off the bus. He's not going thoroughly impress you and set your tongue wagging about how incredibly thoughtful and smart he was in his interview. He's not going to leave smoke trails on the ball when he throws at his Pro Day (seriously doubt he throws at the Combine). He's not going to cause any scouts or decision makers to splutter their coffee when they see their stopwatch at the Combine. What he does best, he does during the games, and by the time he gets drafted he'll have not had an opportunity to show that in about 5 months. That's almost half a damn year.
I'm not saying he's falling out of the 1st round or to the bottom of it or anything. I'm just saying that by the time we get to Draft day I'll be surprised if a lot of teams are creaming all over themselves trying to package up a heavy amount of picks to move up and get the guy that hasn't given you anything new to be super impressed with in half a year.
I think if Miami loses these next two, which they should, then we should expect them to pick #7 overall behind the Colts, Rams, Vikings, Jaguars, Browns and Buccaneers, most likely in that order.
There are some breaks Miami could catch that would put them higher. For instance if the Bucs somehow come away from the Panthers game with a victory, and then the Panthers get a victory in Week 17 from the Saints because the Saints know they're out of bye week contention, we could jump from #7 to #6 overall. If the Steelers know by Week 17 that they're out of AFC North division champion contention with the Ravens (who swept them in head to head) then they could start pulling their starters against the Browns and hand the Browns an unexpected victory. If that and the above Bucs/Panthers/Saints scenario all play out...then Miami could be picking #5.
But I wouldn't count on that. Essentially, we're already picking #8 overall because the Bucs and Panthers play one another next week and whichever one wins will get scooted behind us in the pecking order. I expect to be picking #7 overall once the Redskins find a way to win one more game, probably against the hapless Vikings. And I expect St. Louis to be picking #2 after the hapless Vikings find a win against the even-more-hapless Caleb Hanie/Nate Enderle/Josh McCown Bears.
The Bills could leap ahead of us on a Strength of Schedule tie, which would induce division tiebreakers, and since we swept them they'd get ahead of us.
But for that to happen, some combination of four of the following would need to happen:
Cardinals beat Bengals
Ravens beat Bengals
Browns beat Ravens
Browns beat Steelers
Texans beat Colts
Jaguars beat Titans
Texans beat Titans (double points)
The "(double points)" means that if the Titans beat the Texans in Week 17, then the Bills would need five of the other six outcomes to happen in their favor...in order to end up with a tiebreak over us.
And I just don't see that happening.
And even if Cleveland is picking ahead of us I don't see that big a deal. They could go after a QB in free agency or by trade. Mike Holmgren has to be feeling the pressure to win pretty soon. He's been there a couple of years and the team just seems to get worse. Colt McCoy was purely his call in the 3rd round and that's not panning out. Maybe he doesn't feel like he has the time for a young guy, especially a non-Luck young guy.
And let's say he doesn't take a veteran...I think he will end up taking Robert Griffin over Matt Barkley. Matt Barkley and Colt McCoy would be fast friends on that team (they already are acquaintances and Barkley lists McCoy as one of the people he'll speak to as he decides whether to come out or not) and that's not a good thing, because I sense a rift developing between the McCoy Family (his dad gets too involved, see BCS Championship Game) and the Browns especially over this whole concussion fiasco. Even before that, Colt has made some curious statements to the press about how he's been handled by the Browns since he's been there. Whoever they take in the 1st round isn't going to understudy Colt McCoy, IMO. He's going to understudy Seneca Wallace. And do you think Matt Barkley is more likely to gain valuable insight from understudying Seneca Wallace, or Robert Griffin III? If they have RG3 sitting behind Seneca then they don't have to change offenses according to who is going to play. They can feel free to get RG3 live reps at his own pace to get his feet wet, and they don't have to run anything special or unpredictable. He'll be learning the offense the way Seneca Wallace runs it, and that offense fits RG3 pretty well. Lots of screens, lots of short stuff, some quarterback movement, and then deep ball. I realize that the last QB that people saw Holmgren being successful with was Matt Hasselbeck, and that looks a little Matt Barkley-ish. But in Green Bay, where Holmgren won a championship, it was Brett Favre...and that's DEFINITELY more Robert Griffin-ish. That's what keeps drawing Holmgren to Seneca Wallace, and that's why he drafted McCoy who has wheels and ran a lot of spread-option at Texas.
Listen I like Matt Barkley and I know Slimm likes Matt Barkley and I know hoops you like him as well. But I don't think this pool of talking opinions is indicative of what you generally find out there about him. Just in the Universal Draft trio by itself, I like him, Simon hates him, and Richard is mixed but thinks he's probably worth a 1st rounder (but more toward the middle or bottom). THAT in my opinion is more indicative of what you find in the league as far as opinion on Barkley.
And this draft process is not made for a Matt Barkley. He's a guy that goes out and wins you football games, takes control of a huddle, leads players, operates an offense and hits you with superb accuracy and fundamentals. He's not going to raise any eyebrows when he gets off the bus. He's not going thoroughly impress you and set your tongue wagging about how incredibly thoughtful and smart he was in his interview. He's not going to leave smoke trails on the ball when he throws at his Pro Day (seriously doubt he throws at the Combine). He's not going to cause any scouts or decision makers to splutter their coffee when they see their stopwatch at the Combine. What he does best, he does during the games, and by the time he gets drafted he'll have not had an opportunity to show that in about 5 months. That's almost half a damn year.
I'm not saying he's falling out of the 1st round or to the bottom of it or anything. I'm just saying that by the time we get to Draft day I'll be surprised if a lot of teams are creaming all over themselves trying to package up a heavy amount of picks to move up and get the guy that hasn't given you anything new to be super impressed with in half a year.
hoops
Tua time!
what the hell does simon hate about matt barkley??? i understand that he's not gonna wow anyone with his arm in workouts or run in the 4.4's like griffin is likely to do but imo at least and i've watched every game luck and barkley had this season barkley put out the most consistent tape of any qb in this draft...
anyways...the scenarios in the last 2 weeks you present ck sound logical and likely to me...seems like we're out of any top 5 consideration at this point
anyways...the scenarios in the last 2 weeks you present ck sound logical and likely to me...seems like we're out of any top 5 consideration at this point
ckparrothead
Premium Member
After the year Gabbert's had? Hell no I'm not passing on Matt Barkley to keep Blaine Gabbert! I'm with you all the way there.
But I'm not Gene Smith. I didn't send a 2nd round pick to trade up for Blaine Gabbert at #10 overall even though my Head Coach didn't like him that much. I didn't have my Head Coach fired for benching Blaine in the 4th quarter of a game because I worried that he might mess with Blaine's development.
Gene Smith has all his eggs in the Gabbert basket. He put those eggs there himself. You say he's got to choose a defensive end to go opposite Mincey. That could happen, but I don't expect it to. Smith is taking on water for the Blaine Gabbert thing and his hands are tied, he can't (and likely has zero inclination to) replace Gabbert immediately but he sure can give him more than the dog meat they have at receiver trying to catch passes for Blaine. I agree that all of Blaine's problems are not exclusive to the awful receivers unit...but a LOT of them certainly are. That is by far the worst receivers unit in the league and it's not even close.
Not. Even. Close. I honestly don't think I have ever seen a receivers unit that bad. I'm trying to think, I haven't seen one.
Justin Blackmon PROBABLY won't make it to #4 overall...but I truly believe that Michael Floyd is going to blow the doors of the Combine, interview well making teams forget about the DUIs, make some teams question whether he's legitimately better than Justin Blackmon (the way some wondered whether Julio Jones was legitimately better than A.J. Green), and he could very well end up that #4 overall pick. He's a very good player. They've had sh-t for QB play since Jimmy Clausen left, but when Clausen was there, Floyd was a HUGE deep threat and a far better player than Golden Tate.
hoops
Tua time!
you can't blame the wrs for the kid over and over being unwilling to just get rid of the damn ball and throw the ball away...how many times have i seen him pump once pump twice and then go into the fetal position while the rush has just engulfed him...how many times have i seen him have an edge rusher in his vision take him down for big losses that all he's got to do is dump the damn ball or throw it into the stands...i can't count em...how many times have i seen him on short yardage bailing on throws in the slot even against a unaccounted edge rusher and missing the throw when he needs to stand in and deliver to move the sticks...
like i said earlier i am damn glad we aren't wasting our time with that garbage...cause thats all he is...a waste of time...you can't even depend on that guy as a backup down the road...
like i said earlier i am damn glad we aren't wasting our time with that garbage...cause thats all he is...a waste of time...you can't even depend on that guy as a backup down the road...
ckparrothead
Premium Member
Simon's gripe has to do with deep ball accuracy and arm strength. He also sees instances of Barkley getting confused by coverages and making the wrong decision. Essentially it boils down to the physical argument, he watches Barkley and he's underwhelmed. He's not seeing big throws, he's not seeing big plays made under pressure, not seeing the 30 to 40 yard rockets you need to be comfortable with at the NFL level, etc.
I see a lot of what Simon's talking about but I also see a lot of what he says he doesn't see...so it's just a big difference of opinion the two of us have.
hoops
Tua time!
deep ball accuracy??? i take issue with that very much...the big arm...i understand that argument...but its plenty good enough...i can understand the kid lacks the physical tools to be drafted with a top 5 pick but i think what he lacks in that regard he makes up for with intangibles and fantastic feet
ckparrothead
Premium Member
Basically I look at those wide receivers and I see zero separation, lots of dropped, balls, play calling that has ZERO faith in the wide receivers' ability to get open, and of course no real run after the catch skills to speak of. The unit needs a serious talent enema. I think they picked up a decent talent in Taylor Price, off waivers. He's got issues but he's also probably the one guy that can create separation on the outside. Mike Thomas is a slot receiver, a #3 guy, always should have been just that.
Miami put in a claim for Taylor Price but the Jaguars got first priority. Too bad. I still think he could be good and New England could be sorry to have cut him. But right now in Jacksonville he's still learning the offense and getting very, very few reps during games.