WVDolphan's "Get Real" Today's subject-Physically challenged 2nd round money bargains | Page 5 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

WVDolphan's "Get Real" Today's subject-Physically challenged 2nd round money bargains

Wait, are you saying we finally found a QB who was drafted in the first round?! Bam, we're gonna win the Super Bowl! Signing a first round guy like Ramsey is the best move this team ever made.


Not at all... actually, that's what people like you thought when Miami signed their last few quarterbacks who were drafted in the 1st round (Culpepper, Pennington, etc.)...

Hard to consider Patrick Ramsey as the best move this team ever made when they drafted a totally irrelevant left tackle with the #1 overall pick.... if that doesn't take you to the superbowl nothing will..
 
No not saying that at all..

But some front office ppl have different philosphies. I think Miami did the right thing..We were 1 and 15 and were suffering in the trenches.
Miami could not afford to draft a QB that could bust like Matt Ryan..
Long was the sure thing in the draft, thats why we took him.

Its been shown that teams can be more than medicore if they have a good running game and a qb has protection.
Henne has been protected very well..So if Miami is not satisfied with his production. Miami can plug in another qb.

But I think Henne is the long term answer he has the tools..He has the ability is getting better..He has made plenty strides..
We went 7 and 9 last year..9 and 7...10 and 6 is within our reach.


There's one thing you're continuing to overlook here...and it's the fact that you're wrong... Henne isn't the guy..


Also, when you're picking #1 overall in the draft, you're going to shell out $50 million dollars anyway... the only position you can even justify taking a gamble on giving that type of guaranteed money to is the most important position, the quarterback...

Otherwise, you end up with the most expensive and irrelevant offensive lineman in the league... because you don't have a quarterback...
 
No they weren't... the knock on him was he never even led Stanford to a bowl APPEARANCE.. much less a bowl victory...

They were sold on his physical talent... but he had question marks reguarding his ability to make the teammates around him better..
now that you mention it i remember that. but i think the talking heads just needed something to nitpick about. 5 qbs taken in the first round and every single team would've selected elway first. how much more does everyone have to be sold on it?
 
Everyone in here ridiculed the Jets strategy when they drafted Sanchez but it was a great move and it looks as if it may be paying off. Unfortunately there is no QB (discounting Luck) in this class worth moving up for. Additionally, this regime does not strike me as willing to alter off the safe route mentality.

Agreed, I would essentially trade this draft for Andrew Luck like the Jets did for Sanchez, however I accept the reality that the chance is slim to zero that this would happen next year as I don't see how the Bills could be persuaded not to take Luck. In that case, I just hope against hope we don't waste another 2nd or 3rd rounder on a QB and draft some skill players that can actually make a difference next year and just wait another year or two until the opportunity to finally draft a top tier QB presents itself. But the one thing that is an absolute certainty, is we haven't had a franchise QB since Marino, and we also haven't taken a shot at a bonafide franchise QB in the draft since Marino, I don't think that's a coincidence - I mean we've had 5 different HC's and a couple of FO's and an ownership change, the only thing that we haven't tried is stepping up, spending the draft pick/s and money, and shooting for the moon for a franchise QB. I think we're overdue to take that gamble.

PS And I'm not even pissed that we took Henne or anything else that has been done, all water under the bridge. I just think its pretty clear what we absolutely HAVE to do as soon as we possibly can, whether its next year, or the year after that or so on.
 
Here is a list of all QB's taken in the 1st or 2nd round going back to 2000 (through 2007, too difficult to determine how good 2008 and beyond QBs will be, i.e. Ryan, Flacco, etc). I have them labeled as bust, serviceable, or star next to each name and have bolded my opinions on the ones that could be argued.

1st Rounders
Pennington - 2000 1st Round - Serviceable
Vick - 2001 1st Round - Star
Carr - 2002 1st Round - Bust
Harrington - 2002 1st Round - Bust
Ramsey - 2002 1st Round - Bust
Carson - 2003 1st Round - Serivceable or Star ?
Byron Leftwich - 2003 1st Round - Bust
Kyle Boller - 2003 1st Round - Bust
Rex Grossman - 2003 1st Round - Bust
Eli - 2004 1st Round - Star
Rivers - 2004 1st Round - Star
Roethlisberger - 2004 1st Round - Star
JP Losman - 2004 1st Round - Bust
Alex Smith - 2005 1st Round - Bust or Serviceable ? probably bust here
Aaron Rodgers - 2005 1st Round - Star
Jason Campbell - 2005 1st Round - Serviceable
Vince Young - 2006 1st Round - Star or Serviceable ? looks like he will be pretty darn good
Leinart - 2006 1st Round - Bust
Cutler - 2006 1st Round - Serviceable
Jemarcus - 2007 1st Round - Bust
Brady Quinn - 2007 1st Round - Bust

6 of 18 QB's (33%) drafted in the 1st round since 2000 have emerged as Stars (of these 6, 5 were drafted in the first 15 picks)
9 of 18 QB's (50%) drafted in the 1st round since 2000 have emerged as Busts (of these 9, 5 were drafted in the first 10 picks)

2nd Rounders
Drew Brees - 2001 2nd Round - Star
Quincy Carter - 2001 2nd Round - Bust
Tuiassassopo - 2001 2nd Round - Bust
Kellen Clemens - 2006 2nd Round - Bust
Tavaris Jackson - 2006 2nd Round - Serviceable
Drew Stanton - 2007 2nd Round - Bust
John Beck - 2007 2nd Round - Bust

1 of 7 2nd Round QB's have emerged as stars from the 2nd Round
5 of 7 2nd Round QB's have emerged as busts from the 2nd Round (although busting in the 2nd is a lot less detrimental then busting in the 1st)

I think the only point WV has made that was proven by the data is that the 2nd round has not produced many good QB's at least over the past 10 yrs or so.

Where WV's argument has holes is that taking a 1st round QB is the end all be all. Seeing as 5 of the 9 Busts in my analysis came in the 1st 10 picks and that only 33% of the 1st Round QBs have turned into stars, this isn't the only way to build your team. If you hit it big and get one of the stars, that's great. You've built a good foundation for your franchise, but the data says that you are more likely to miss then hit.



Taking a 1st round offensive tackle DAMN SURE isn't the end-all-be-all... feel free to go down this list and label all these 1st round offensive tackles selected the last 10 years as stars..serviceable...busts...



2009:

Jason Smith

Andre Smith

Eugene Monroe

Michael Oher



2008:

Jake Long

Ryan Clady

Chris Williams

Gosder Cherilus

Jeff Otah

Sam Baker

Duane Brown



2007:

Joe Thomas

Levi Brown

Joe Staley



2006:

D'Brick Ferguson



2005:

Jamaal Brown

Alex Barron



2004:

Robert Gallery

Shawn Andrews

Vernon Carey



2003:

Jordan Gross

George Foster

Kwame Harris



2002:

Mike Williams

Bryant McKinnie

Levi Jones

Marc Colombo



2001:

Leonard Davis

Kenyatta Walker

Jeff Backus



2000:

Chris Samuels

Stockar McDougle

Chris McIntosh




More importantly, the teams that DID hit on these 1st round tackles and get a "star" at the position, what the hell have they won, compared to the teams that got a "star" QB in the 1st round over that same span, but acquired their offensive tackles in rounds beyond the 1st?


Miami has TWO of these guys off this list.... one for each "serviceable" quarterback that got knocked out of the game last week....
 
Patrick Ramsey was another one of these QB's that came from a wide open, gimmicky offensive systems at Tulane under Frank Scelfo... He was drafted in the 1st round to try to run Spurrier's fun-n-gun offense in Washington...

Just because a quarterback was drafted in the 1st round obviously doesn't mean he should've been..

well thats what the OP wants us to do. draft a qb in the 1st round just for the sake of drafting a qb in the 1st round
 
To start, lets examine the teams at the top of the playoff chase this season, and see where their QB was selected in their respective drafts.

Patriots - 6th round
Jets - 1st round, traded up using almost all of their picks to select their QB 5th overall
Steelers - 1st round
Ravens - 1st round
Colts - 1st round
Chargers - (yea the Chargers. We all know they are doing their usual and winning down the stretch to capture that weak divisions title) 1st round
Eagles - 1st round
Giants - 1st round
Packers - 1st round
Falcons - 1st round
Saints - 2nd round
Someone will win the NFC West, but are any of those teams a contender for anything? The best QB in that division, is a rookie who was of course taken 1st overall last year by the Rams. Look for them to win that division regularly over the next few seasons.



[video=youtube;BnD6ojjA0OA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnD6ojjA0OA[/video]

So what do we notice? 9 of the 11 teams with a legitimate shot to win the Super Bowl, have QBs who were drafted in the first round. One team, the Pats, got lucky and hit a legend on a 6th round pick. Another team, the Saints have a QB who was a 2nd round pick. Note however he was casted off from his original team for a top 5 overall selection at QB who is definately a better player. Brees has been tremendous in his own right the last few years though.

But, what we notice is almost every one of those teams got their QB from not only the 1st round, but most of them in the top few selection. Only a few of them were mid first round selections.

And of those teams, look at the ones who have been perinial contenders over the last few seasons. The ones who are in the mix EVERY YEAR. With the exception of Brady, they are teams with QBs who went early in the first round.

This should SCREAM to any FO in the NFL, that if you want to put a team together, the first and foremost thing you need to do is get yourself a talented QB. It screams if you have the first overall selection and you dont have a QB, you probably want to consider that before selecting a lineman.

And thats obviously what this franchise needs to do. Of course we are likely not going to be in position to draft a guy near the top of the draft this season. But, I think its clear, if we are going to draft a QB, and its clear we need to btw, that we shouldnt continue to WASTE our time and WASTE our selections in the 2nd and middle rounds on a QB. Either get the real deal or dont get one at all.

I say this because I hear a lot of rumblings for going other needs in the first round and drafting a QB later. My point is WHY? If you arent going to draft a QB in the first round, please dont bother. Im tired of these hopefulls with 2nd round picks when there are tons of talented players at skill positions we desperately need available in rounds 2 and 3. And I think I have made it more than clear that their just arent good QBs left in the 2nd and 3rd rounds.

I think its pretty clear what we need to do. If there is any way possible for us to package enough picks, even with the void of a 2nd rounder, we need to trade up to get our QB. Only then can we actually start to build this team.

Hell, we may not need that much building if we get our QB. Look at what the Jets did in 09. They traded all but their 3rd round pick and moved up to #5 overall in the first round to get their guy. All they did was wind up in the AFC title game. They had a decent team already, they just needed a QB. I think we are in a similar position. We compete pretty well with good teams and beat almost all the bad teams we play. We do this despite horrible QB play. If we can just get a QB, we could catapult quickly.

Not only that, this isnt 1991 anymore, where teams would draft a QB and they would almost automatically be figured to sit a year or two and watch some veteran play mediocre at the position while the team struggles. Guys are coming in, starting right away, and doing a pretty nice job. This has been a trend over the last 5 or 6 years. There have been a lot fewer busts it seems over this span at the position as well.

Whats tough, is personally the only QB Im truly sold on that could be in this draft is Andrew Luck. If he comes out, he will likely go 1st overall. The problem with that is there is a strong chance Buffalo will have that selection. They wont be trading it. I also highly doubt they draft a LT if they find themselves in that spot either. That could be a shame for Luck, because if he does go to Buffalo, I could see him busting as a result. Buffalo is where QB careers go to die.

So I suggest if we cant get Luck, it might be wise to pass on a QB altogether and struggle for one more season with some FA vet or Thigpen if he plays well down the stretch. Hell, it isnt impossible Thigpen turns out to be our guy and this is mute, but Im not betting on that. Mallett is interesting and Locker could be as well. I just know I dont want to spend more valuable picks in the 2nd and mid rounds on a QB.

Here's my theory on the drafting. 1st round is specifically for QBs, playmakers on D(pass rush specialists especially) and the occasional WR or DB.

The 2nd and 3rd rounds are where you load up on skill position guys. You can find great talent at RB, WR, TE, and defensive playmakers in these rounds. Yet almost any QB you take in these rounds will likely bust. Thats why you dont use these picks on QBs. These are the most valuable picks a team has. The contracts are much friendlier to the cap system as well.

The later rounds are where you get your cornfed linemen. You can get great linemen in these rounds if you take the right ones. And the line is about cohesiveness and unity anyway. Its not about individual players so much. You need a solid group that plays well together.

You can also find the occasional gem at other positions in these rounds. A lot of good RBs can come from these rounds. RB is the most easily filled position in the league as it is. As long as a guy has talent, if the line blocks well for him, he will produce big numbers.

I look at these rounds 5-7 as flyers. You want to take guys that you think you can hit a homerun with and dont worry about them being complete whiffs. This is where you may take a QB on occasion just to try and get lucky. But, if you need a QB, get a 1st rounder. If you have an older QB, then take a shot every year in these late rounds at one and see if you can develope a project. If you didnt get lucky by the time your older QB needs to go, then you get a 1st rounder.

So please, no more of these band aids at QB. No more projects. We need a top level QB and we need one NOW. Whoever is in charge of this team on draft day, get us what we need. Anything we select without getting the QB we need is a waste anyway because this team isnt going anywhere until the QB void that was left over 10 years ago gets filled. If you have to trade top picks in next years draft in order to get in position to get our QB, then do it. It simply dosent matter how many other "holes" we need to fill until we fill this one. So just ****ing do it already and put an end to the misery this fanbase has had to endure.

you lost me at phillip rivers is better than drew brees. please show me facts, and show me phillip rivers beating tom brady, brett favre, peyton manning, kurt warner, and your beloved matt ryan in one season. drew brees is a monster, and he is a top 3 quarterback in the league. he is the will behind his team, which is not as talented as the chargers team, and has a superbowl ring. now tell me whose better, phillip rivers or drew brees...
 
you lost me at phillip rivers is better than drew brees. please show me facts, and show me phillip rivers beating tom brady, brett favre, peyton manning, kurt warner, and your beloved matt ryan in one season. drew brees is a monster, and he is a top 3 quarterback in the league. he is the will behind his team, which is not as talented as the chargers team, and has a superbowl ring. now tell me whose better, phillip rivers or drew brees...[/QUOTE]

Hands down Brees is better.

And didnt Brees take a few years to develop?

Yes.
 
you lost me at phillip rivers is better than drew brees. please show me facts, and show me phillip rivers beating tom brady, brett favre, peyton manning, kurt warner, and your beloved matt ryan in one season. drew brees is a monster, and he is a top 3 quarterback in the league. he is the will behind his team, which is not as talented as the chargers team, and has a superbowl ring. now tell me whose better, phillip rivers or drew brees...

Have to agree with WV on this one. It's not even close.

Saying that Rivers isn't as good as the guys you mentioned because he doesn't have a ring is like saying that Marino wasn't better than his contemporaries because he never got a ring.

Rivers appears to be on his way to an MVP season (unless Vick continues to put up historic numbers like he did last night) and has been consistently doing so for some time. Moreover, he almost defeated one of the greatest teams of all time (Patriots) on a torn ACL in a game where his Hall of Fame running back decided to sit out with a sore toe.

Brees, while extremely solid, was fairly mediocre early in his career and benefits from having a start-studded offense with tons of weapons. Meanwhile, Brees is putting up his numbers while throwing to a couple of a nice weapons as well as a bunch of guys fresh off the practice squad.

But hey, you're entitled to your opinion.
 
God forbid we use a 1st round pick on a qb, what would we do without a average injury prone rb, a bust of a db who was cut, a bust of a reciever who was traded, a defensive lineman who didn't make it through one game and a very good left tackle who is protecting garbae qb's.
 
I think it's kind of funny trying to blame QB injury on our line. Long and Carey are both solid players. We do need to find a better center. We need running lanes for our backs. I'm not convinced Ronnie wont be on our team next season they are waiting to see what he does this year. He has not really earned an extension yet. Keep him hungry for it and see if he starts making his own holes. We play solid football and if they want to keep focus on the trenches for now I am OK wiuth that but at some point you have to reach for the big name QB. I amn not convinced Ryan or any other QB out of that class would of flourished in Miami considering the condition we were in at the time but now I agree it is time to get us a real QB. A young talented QB could make it here. All 4 of our losses could of been wins if we got more from our QB. I'm not ready to close the book on Henne yet but I would not pass up bringing another QB in here if he looks like he has the goods to be a star in the NFL. The only thing you can do is keep fishing till one hits and in the mean time build the team up so he has help when he gets here. If dilfer can get a ring any QB can.
 
Taking a 1st round offensive tackle DAMN SURE isn't the end-all-be-all... feel free to go down this list and label all these 1st round offensive tackles selected the last 10 years as stars..serviceable...busts...



2009:

Jason Smith

Andre Smith

Eugene Monroe

Michael Oher



2008:

Jake Long

Ryan Clady

Chris Williams

Gosder Cherilus

Jeff Otah

Sam Baker

Duane Brown



2007:

Joe Thomas

Levi Brown

Joe Staley



2006:

D'Brick Ferguson



2005:

Jamaal Brown

Alex Barron



2004:

Robert Gallery

Shawn Andrews

Vernon Carey



2003:

Jordan Gross

George Foster

Kwame Harris



2002:

Mike Williams

Bryant McKinnie

Levi Jones

Marc Colombo



2001:

Leonard Davis

Kenyatta Walker

Jeff Backus



2000:

Chris Samuels

Stockar McDougle

Chris McIntosh




More importantly, the teams that DID hit on these 1st round tackles and get a "star" at the position, what the hell have they won, compared to the teams that got a "star" QB in the 1st round over that same span, but acquired their offensive tackles in rounds beyond the 1st?


Miami has TWO of these guys off this list.... one for each "serviceable" quarterback that got knocked out of the game last week....

Ask the Lions about how important a left tackle is, particularly when you're trying to groom a franchise QB.

Having arguably the best left tackle in the NFL is not an absolute necessity (that's what Long is) but having one of the better ones, I guy that can consistently protect his QB's blind side is.

You can go back and forth playing hypothetical games until the cows come home, but I'll leave you with this:
-Long was a sure thing at No. 1 overall (more of a sure thing than Ryan for sure)
-Ryan has yet to cement his status as a franchise QB (no playoff wins and no consistently elite production from week to week)
-We're discussing whether or not Miami should draft a QB in the first round, not lamenting the 2008 draft (that's old news and off topic here) which renders your entire post more or less moot

If and when Miami finally settles on a "franchise" QB (as long as that happens in the next 5 years or so) Long will be there to protect his blind side. And that's a good thing, since it's hard to develop a QB from his backside or injured reserve.

P.S. We get it. You don't think Henne is the answer. Some folks disagree. That's life.
 
I think it's kind of funny trying to blame QB injury on our line. Long and Carey are both solid players. We do need to find a better center. We need running lanes for our backs. I'm not convinced Ronnie wont be on our team next season they are waiting to see what he does this year. He has not really earned an extension yet. Keep him hungry for it and see if he starts making his own holes. We play solid football and if they want to keep focus on the trenches for now I am OK wiuth that but at some point you have to reach for the big name QB. I amn not convinced Ryan or any other QB out of that class would of flourished in Miami considering the condition we were in at the time but now I agree it is time to get us a real QB. A young talented QB could make it here. All 4 of our losses could of been wins if we got more from our QB. I'm not ready to close the book on Henne yet but I would not pass up bringing another QB in here if he looks like he has the goods to be a star in the NFL. The only thing you can do is keep fishing till one hits and in the mean time build the team up so he has help when he gets here. If dilfer can get a ring any QB can.


Blaming Long or Carey for the QB's being knocked out of the game isn't what's going on here... the point is, having these "solid players" didn't prevent it...

A scrub quarterback is a scrub quarterback... no matter how good his offensive line is...

The great quarterbacks in this require a little protection, that's not news... However, you can put a bomb shelter in front of mediocre quarterbacks and it doesn't matter... he's still a mediocre quarterback, and you're not winning anything, or winning consistently with that formula...

A franchise caliber quarterback will make his offensive line look better.... a great offensive line can't hide a mediocre quarterback... maybe to the casual fan, but they can't hide from me... nor NFL defenses...

The best way to acquire one of these "elusive" franchise caliber quarterbacks is to invest all the resources at your disposal (quality, high draft picks) into trying to find one....


Drafting a 1st round quarterback this year still isn't going to make up for the blunder of passing on Matt Ryan... Miami might have the opportunity to take a QB in the 1st round every year, but they won't ever have a better shot at a better quarterback than the one they passed up in April of '08....

..and I'm just at a complete loss that people couldn't see that beforehand...
 
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