History not working in Ginn's favor | Page 3 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

History not working in Ginn's favor

Dude, does the sun ever shine in your little world?

There is this misconception out there that Ted Ginn Jr. is a kick returner who might also play WR. Make NO mistake, Tedd Ginn Jr. is an EXCELLENT WR who happens to be an EXCELLENT return man also

exactly!
one thing that really has me bothered by this thread and others is the constant comparisons to devin hester. devin hester is a cornerback and we are comparing his skills to a reciever? yes i understand that he will now be used on offense, but how does that compare to ginn? hester is a return man without a position, ginn is a reciever that happens to be a great kick returner. please stop comparing them it just doesnt make sense.
 
Ginn defenders will not take this criticism lightly. Have you not seen Ginn's high school video highlights? The guy was unbelievable. And if high school video highlights isn't the best predictor of NFL success, then nobody knows nothing. Hah!

apparently you missed his 4 years of highlights at Ohio state:rolleyes2
 
That article was relevant to Hester because all he is able to do is return punts.

Honestly, all of these questions about Ginn because he can ALSO return kicks are stupid. He was a starting WR at a major division 1 school. He put up better numbers as a WR than his teammate (Gonzalez) who was also drafted in the first round. He put up better numbers as a WR than his former teammate (Santonio Holmes) who was also a first round pick. When Holmes, Ginn, and Gonzalez were all on the team in 2005, Ginn was the starter with Holmes. I haven't heard any questions about Gonzalez being able to make it in the NFL.

All of these talking heads are acting like Ginn was a spot duty receiver in college and was primarily a kick returner. That is simply not true.

This was well said. Thank you Finfan.
 
exactly!
one thing that really has me bothered by this thread and others is the constant comparisons to devin hester. devin hester is a cornerback and we are comparing his skills to a reciever? yes i understand that he will now be used on offense, but how does that compare to ginn? hester is a return man without a position, ginn is a reciever that happens to be a great kick returner. please stop comparing them it just doesnt make sense.


They compare him to Devin Hester because they feel Hester is the model for why Ginn was drafted so high because of what he has done on special teams. There is reason to compare because the first thing out of Cam's mouth when we drafted Ginn was pun return. I still say Ginn is more comparable to Desmond Howard although Howard a much more dominating senior year by far scoring 19 receiving Td's.
 
I think the article has a point as it relates to Devin Hester. It does not, however, apply to Ted Ginn Jr. that well and I will tell you why.

The reason you don't often see full time PR and KR guys achieving long term success is because they are generally specialized, marginally talented players whose talents are tailored for the return business.

If you are more than that as a player, you generally end up finding a bigger and more important role with the team elsewhere. That is the bottom line.

Derrick Mason and Steve Smith are prime examples. Steve Smith has 6 career return touchdowns (and that's not even counting one he had in the playoffs). During his first three seasons in the NFL, when he performed the duty full time, he had at least one touchdown in each season...5 in his first two seasons. He averaged a touchdown for every 45 returns. Why doesn't Steve Smith continue returning punts? Because he happens to be one of the most valuable receivers in the game right now, and coaches don't generally put premium players out there on returns to risk getting injured. They're too important to the team in other ways.

Another prime example would be Deion Sanders. He returned 6 punts for touchdowns and 3 kicks for touchdowns. He averaged a return touchdown for every 41 returns.

Did they have as many returns in their career as Dante Hall does? The answer is no. Over a 14 year career, Deion had 155 kickoff returns and 212 punt returns. He averaged 26 returns a year. Steve Smith was active on returns his first three years but has certainly tailed off those duties now. He has averaged 44 returns per year but that average will clearly be going down with each passing year.

Does that mean Steve Smith or Deion Sanders were less dangerous on returns, once they got past that early period of their careers where they were used on returns full time? The answer is no. In fact, their teams think they're so dangerous on returns that they generally continued to use them in special situations. Perfect example is the 2005 playoffs. The Panthers are down and the Seahawks have found a way to literally triple-team Steve Smith without getting burnt elsewhere. The Panthers feel like they need a spark, and by that point they had taken Steve Smith off return duties and put Chris Gamble on them. Why? Because Smith was on his way to a 103 catch season. Still, they're now in the playoffs, chips are down and they need a spark so they go back to the well, have Steve Smith return a punt. He promptly took it to the house.

I remember similarly how Deion Sanders would come in on returns later in his career for special situations when his team felt they needed a spark.

But the bottom line is players that are that good, to where they could achieve consistent success returning punts and kicks for touchdowns, they generally end up being good enough to be good receivers or good corners or good runningbacks...and then they become too valuable to risk injury by continuing to have them return full time.

Not to mention, once a guy gets a reputation for being a dangerous returner, there are all kinds of things the kicking teams can do to take them out of the game and minimize their returns. Those tactics have their benefits to the team with the dangerous return man in terms of field position average, but that doesn't make its way onto a return man's personal stats.

I find it odd the idea that we would be comparing Ted Ginn Jr., who was one of the most electric RECEIVERS in the college game his final two seasons, with guys like Dante Hall, Michael Lewis and Desmond Howard...players whose skill sets were specialized enough so as to be good return men but who were not so talented as to be valuable football players on offense or defense.

By comparing Ted Ginn Jr. to those players, you're already making a BIG presupposition that I am not comfortable making...and that is that Ted Ginn Jr. does not become a valuable NFL WR. If he's not good enough to do that, then I believe he does indeed fall into the category of specialty returners that were not great offensive or defensive football players, and therefore couldn't cut it long term.

The best returners, the ones that have a chance to be consistently dangerous, generally don't end up allowed to return the ball full time. That's the bottom line.

So the article is accurate as it relates to Devin Hester, but accurate as it relates to Ted Ginn Jr. ONLY inasmuch as we can probably expect Ted Ginn to be a part-time returner within 4 years of entering the league, because he'll be too valuable as a receiver to risk the injury on a full time basis.
 
They compare him to Devin Hester because they feel Hester is the model for why Ginn was drafted so high because of what he has done on special teams. There is reason to compare because the first thing out of Cam's mouth when we drafted Ginn was pun return. I still say Ginn is more comparable to Desmond Howard although Howard a much more dominating senior year by far scoring 19 receiving Td's.

If your suggesting that Ginn is more comparable to Desmond Howard, I can only assume you NEVER saw them both play either live or on tape.

And as far as what the first thing out of Cam's mouth was, pay attention to NFL history, first and even second year receivers tend too struggle, it is usually the third year that the pro Receiver comes into his own, so of course Cam at the time of the draft was pointing out the area of the team that Ginn will probably have the most immediate impact on.

I expect a Steve Smith sort of career for Ted Ginn, with the possibility Ted Ginn could be even more dangerous.
 
Nice CK! This says it all.

I find it odd the idea that we would be comparing Ted Ginn Jr., who was one of the most electric RECEIVERS in the college game his final two seasons, with guys like Dante Hall, Michael Lewis and Desmond Howard...players whose skill sets were specialized enough so as to be good return men but who were not so talented as to be valuable football players on offense or defense.
 
That article was relevant to Hester because all he is able to do is return punts.

Honestly, all of these questions about Ginn because he can ALSO return kicks are stupid. He was a starting WR at a major division 1 school. He put up better numbers as a WR than his teammate (Gonzalez) who was also drafted in the first round. He put up better numbers as a WR than his former teammate (Santonio Holmes) who was also a first round pick. When Holmes, Ginn, and Gonzalez were all on the team in 2005, Ginn was the starter with Holmes. I haven't heard any questions about Gonzalez being able to make it in the NFL.

All of these talking heads are acting like Ginn was a spot duty receiver in college and was primarily a kick returner. That is simply not true.

When did he put up better numbers than Santanio Holmes.

In 2005 they played together
rec yards td avg

Ted Ginn 51 803 4 15.7
San Holmes 53 977 11 18.4

In 2004 when they played together

REc yards td avg
Ginn 25 359 2 14.4
Holmes 55 769 7 14.0


Three year totals

REC YARDS TD AVG
Ginn 135 1943 15 14.4
Holmes 140 2295 25 16.4


Ginn definately did not outplay Holmes. Holmes was by far the more dangerous receiver with much better average and 10 more Td's.

In fact Ginn barely outplayed Gonzalez
Rec Yards TD AVG
Ginn 59 781 9 13.2

Gonzo 51 734 8 14.4
 
Nice CK! This says it all.

I find it odd the idea that we would be comparing Ted Ginn Jr., who was one of the most electric RECEIVERS in the college game his final two seasons, with guys like Dante Hall, Michael Lewis and Desmond Howard...players whose skill sets were specialized enough so as to be good return men but who were not so talented as to be valuable football players on offense or defense.


Desmond Howard as a college receiver was very good and was drafted even higher than Ginn so I don't see how you feel his skill set was so bad while Ginn's is so good.

Desmond Howard had 1 less catch than Ginn in his career even though he basically only played extensivly his last two years averaging over 60 catches a season. Has 17 more td than Ginn receiving 32 to 15 and 200 yards more receiving. Overall he was a much more dangerous receiver than Ginn and just as adangerous in the return game.
 
When did he put up better numbers than Santanio Holmes.

In 2005 they played together
rec yards td avg

Ted Ginn 51 803 4 15.7
San Holmes 53 977 11 18.4

In 2004 when they played together

REc yards td avg
Ginn 25 359 2 14.4
Holmes 55 769 7 14.0


Three year totals

REC YARDS TD AVG
Ginn 135 1943 15 14.4
Holmes 140 2295 25 16.4


Ginn definately did not outplay Holmes. Holmes was by far the more dangerous receiver with much better average and 10 more Td's.

In fact Ginn barely outplayed Gonzalez
Rec Yards TD AVG
Ginn 59 781 9 13.2

Gonzo 51 734 8 14.4

Don't discount the factor of the mere presense of Ted Ginn's speed and playmaking ability, greatly assisting Holmes and Gonzalez in facing more single coverages and putting up bigger numbers than they likely would have without Ted Ginn on the field.

OSU's passing game was less than impressive against Florida WITHOUT the presense of Ted Ginn. Gonzalez was certainly not a big factor.
 
It dont seem like hes gonna play anyway, i keep hearing he want participate in Spring drills , then know i hear he want be ready for preseason games.If were lucky , he might be ready for the 2008 season
 
Ginn definately did not outplay Holmes. Holmes was by far the more dangerous receiver with much better average and 10 more Td's.

Subtle but important correction to be made here. Ted Ginn Jr. did not out-PRODUCE Santonio Holmes.

But the fact of the matter was that Santonio Holmes had the benefit of working underneath deep safeties and with single coverage because defenses were so scared of Ted Ginn Jr. That is why scouts and coaches that watched the film of the two together, dropped Santonio Holmes down their boards to the bottom of the first round (which was unfortunate because Santonio has lots of skills in his own right), and have had their eyes on Ted Ginn Jr. since 2005.

As Chris Mortenson said, Nick Saban told him personally that when the team watched film of Santonio Holmes, the guy that really jumped off the page was Ted Ginn Jr...not Santonio Holmes.

A great deal of Ted Ginn's value is realized without the ball in his hands. Defenses WERE scared of the man. To understate that is just not acknowledging reality.
 
Don't discount the factor of the mere presense of Ted Ginn's speed and playmaking ability, greatly assisting Holmes and Gonzalez in facing more single coverages and putting up bigger numbers than they likely would have without Ted Ginn on the field.

OSU's passing game was less than impressive against Florida WITHOUT the presense of Ted Ginn. Gonzalez was certainly not a big factor.


I agree he is much better than Gonzalez but I think Holmes assisted Ginn as much as he did and am not convinced that Ginn is better than Holmes. That being said that is not really an insult because Holmes is good.
 
I agree he is much better than Gonzalez but I think Holmes assisted Ginn as much as he did and am not convinced that Ginn is better than Holmes. That being said that is not really an insult because Holmes is good.

I think it's a decent open question as to whether Ginn is better than Holmes or not. I won't knock anyone for not being convinced, especially after Holmes had a pretty good rookie season.

But I will say that scouts and coaches that watched the film of them together in 2005 concluded for the most part that Ted Ginn Jr. did more favors for Santonio Holmes than Santonio Holmes did for Ted Ginn Jr. Otherwise, Holmes would not have fallen to the bottom of the first round, nearly out of the first altogether. He was obviously the best WR in the class.

Santonio was taken at the bottom of the first, meanwhile Ted was on pre-season watch lists for potential top 10 selection. That should tell you what you need to know about what scouts saw between Ted and Santonio in 2005.
 
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