History not working in Ginn's favor

[dlockz]

Subtle but important correction to be made here. Ted Ginn Jr. did not out-PRODUCE Santonio Holmes.

But the fact of the matter was that Santonio Holmes had the benefit of working underneath deep safeties and with single coverage because defenses were so scared of Ted Ginn Jr. That is why scouts and coaches that watched the film of the two together, dropped Santonio Holmes down their boards to the bottom of the first round (which was unfortunate because Santonio has lots of skills in his own right), and have had their eyes on Ted Ginn Jr. since 2005.

As Chris Mortenson said, Nick Saban told him personally that when the team watched film of Santonio Holmes, the guy that really jumped off the page was Ted Ginn Jr...not Santonio Holmes.

A great deal of Ted Ginn's value is realized without the ball in his hands. Defenses WERE scared of the man. To understate that is just not acknowledging reality.

Ginn did not outperform or out produce Holmes.Holmes did alot more with the ball in his hands than Ginn did. In 2004 when Ginn had minimal impact and was definately not getting double covered Holmes was still putting up numbers akin to Ginn's best numbers.

I do agree that there are many things a receiver does that help a team besides catches and touchdowns but when you talked about who played better last year you don't hear that even though Randy Moss had 20 less catches and 7 less touchdowns he had a better year than Jerry Porter because teams had to pay more attention to him.

 

[calmrage]

If you need to compare, a better comparison for Ginn Jr., as far as skills, would be Raider great Tim Brown.

 

[YetanotherFan]

Desmond Howard as a college receiver was very good and was drafted even higher than Ginn so I don't see how you feel his skill set was so bad while Ginn's is so good.

Desmond Howard had 1 less catch than Ginn in his career even though he basically only played extensivly his last two years averaging over 60 catches a season. Has 17 more td than Ginn receiving 32 to 15 and 200 yards more receiving. Overall he was a much more dangerous receiver than Ginn and just as adangerous in the return game.

D, I wasn't disagreeing with your Howard comparison. Just trying to reiterate the fact we drafted Ginn to be more than just a ST players and that there was bases for having that view.

 

[dlockz]

I think it's a decent open question as to whether Ginn is better than Holmes or not. I won't knock anyone for not being convinced, especially after Holmes had a pretty good rookie season.

But I will say that scouts and coaches that watched the film of them together in 2005 concluded for the most part that Ted Ginn Jr. did more favors for Santonio Holmes than Santonio Holmes did for Ted Ginn Jr. Otherwise, Holmes would not have fallen to the bottom of the first round, nearly out of the first altogether. He was obviously the best WR in the class.

Santonio was taken at the bottom of the first, meanwhile Ted was on pre-season watch lists for potential top 10 selection. That should tell you what you need to know about what scouts saw between Ted and Santonio in 2005.

I think Holmes fall had more to do with who had a need for a wide receiver because pre draft both players were rated to be drafted about in the same spots. Last year Holmes was projected to be a mid first round pick, much the same as many had Ginn. Ginn was always the more hyped player especially since he was one of the top collge recruits when he came out of high school.

 

[BlueFin]

I think it's a decent open question as to whether Ginn is better than Holmes or not. I won't knock anyone for not being convinced, especially after Holmes had a pretty good rookie season.

But I will say that scouts and coaches that watched the film of them together in 2005 concluded for the most part that Ted Ginn Jr. did more favors for Santonio Holmes than Santonio Holmes did for Ted Ginn Jr. Otherwise, Holmes would not have fallen to the bottom of the first round, nearly out of the first altogether. He was obviously the best WR in the class.

Santonio was taken at the bottom of the first, meanwhile Ted was on pre-season watch lists for potential top 10 selection. That should tell you what you need to know about what scouts saw between Ted and Santonio in 2005.

And what you are pointing out can either be backed up or dispelled by a study of game film, as to the coverage schemes teams used when facing Ginn and Holmes together, was Holmes indeed facing more single coverages than Ginn?

I personally have not done this research, but, from what you have said, and other reports I have heard, this seems to have been the case.

 

[JT#1]

It dont seem like hes gonna play anyway, i keep hearing he want participate in Spring drills , then know i hear he want be ready for preseason games.If were lucky , he might be ready for the 2008 season

the reason hes not participating in spring drills is because OSU semmester isn't over, hes said he expects to be ready for training camp

 

[footballer]

how long does a post that size take? wow man.

ted ginn was awesome in college.
will be in miami also.

 

[BlueFin]

If you need to compare, a better comparison for Ginn Jr., as far as skills, would be Raider great Tim Brown.

Perhaps from the standpoint of being WR's and returners, and I fully realize Tim Brown was a very good football player, some might even say great.

But I'm old enough to remember when Tim Brown came out, and I don't remember ever thinking of him being as electric as Ted Ginn, excellent all-around skills, but not quite the same.

 

[dlockz]

Perhaps from the standpoint of being WR's and returners, and I fully realize Tim Brown was a very good football player, some might even say great.

But I'm old enough to remember when Tim Brown came out, and I don't remember ever thinking of him being as electric as Ted Ginn, excellent all-around skills, but not quite the same.

Brown was much more electric in college averaging over 20 yards a cacth in his best year, well over. Overall there is some comparism there also.

 

[BlueFin]

Brown was much more electric in college averaging over 20 yards a cacth in his best year, well over. Overall there is some comparism there also.

In your opinion perhaps, I don't remember being awed by Browns second gear the way Ginn's impresses me, or his shake and bake, but I understand where your coming from as you seem to be fairly negative about all the Dolphin moves.

 

[23EmilioVasquez]

dont under stand why people do understand he was also a killer at wideout in ohio state

 

[dlockz]

In your opinion perhaps, I don't remember being awed by Browns second gear the way Ginn's impresses me, or his shake and bake, but I understand where your coming from as you seem to be fairly negative about all the Dolphin moves.

I don't agree with alot of our moves lately and our history lately has not proven me wrong. Believe me I want to be optimistic but you got to give me something. It has been too long since we won anything and since Shula has been gone it has staedily regressesed although his poor drafting after we got marino attributed alot to out downfall also. I have liked some moves but nobody debares. much when you agree.

My takes on our moves this year.

Porter solid player too much guaranteed money.
Did not sign or trade for any significant OL upgrades.
Relying too much on a TE that has been injury prone and done very little, no backup plan in case his history repeats itself which is very possible.
Hate the idea of aquiring a 37 year old Qb for a draft pick a concussed one coming off a bad year to top that off.
Not addressing the oline enough in the draft, Satale is the only real addressing, the rest were late round picks and undrafted free agents(I have a feeling at least two of these free agents make the roster so that is good.)
Took too many chances in the draft with the Qb position, if Beck was thier man we got him by pure luck because we could have easily missed drafting him and even though i think Ginn could be real good would rather have addressed Qb there and still got a good receiver in the second round.
Cut one expensive kicker and replaced him with just as expensive a kicker.
Best move of the year convincing NE to give up so much for Welker.
Change the whole OL around again, just as we were getting some cohesion and decent play from our RT. Amazing after so many were convinced that Alabi was something special despite evidence to the contrary.


i'm not as optimistic as some because I don't think the moves we have made
give me such a reason to be. I'm just a very realistic fan and will not like a move just because my team does it. i don't think players are better just because they are on my team, i root for them and am glad when they do well but there is a differance. i want to be optimistic I do, I just see very little evidence why I should be. I'ma dolphin fan to the end but I will not try to act like my team is better than they are.

 

[PhinfanUK]

This thread is ridiculous. Basically, you took an article about Hester and swapped his name for Ginn? What the hell man?

Ginn is twice the reciever Hester is at this point, this article is completely irrelevant. This is the only thread I have ever given one star.

 

[djphinfan]

Come on, I know you read it!

lol,,,allllllllright phanatical i'll read it,,shheeshhh,lol

 

[FinfanInBuffalo]

When did he put up better numbers than Santanio Holmes.


Three year totals

REC YARDS TD AVG
Ginn 135 1943 15 14.4
Holmes 140 2295 25 16.4


Ginn definately did not outplay Holmes. Holmes was by far the more dangerous receiver with much better average and 10 more Td's.

I got my original numbers from an apparently messed up EPSN site (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/player/profile?playerId=133634)

Add in Ginn's rushing and return TDs and he has 25 career TDs as well. Ginn's best year was 59 receptions. Holmes' best year was 55 receptions.

Compare them anyway you want, BUT nobody is seriously doubting Holmes or Gonzalez (which was the point), so why are so many people doubting Ginn? It makes no sense at all.