I would like to hear more opinions of CK and Boomer about our draft plans.

[funkDat]

Matt Ryan does make risky throws. His problem is he catches fire and then thinks he can make every throw, and yes it does lead to interceptions and incompletions, sometimes sacks.

One thing people like about him is he seems to have a sense of knowing when during the game to "turn it on". One thing people don't like about him is once he does turn it on and enjoy some success, he makes some geeked up throws that are real head scratchers.

As I watch that Boston College offense, Purvis and Callendar were really the only things they had going for them. They couldn't challenge anyone deep, just horizontally with Callendar being covered by a linebacker. Combine that with a ground game that is easy to stop, if you only try, and it was a pretty bad supporting cast for Matt Ryan. You're not going to see a whole lot of intermediate comebacks and intermediate out patterns if defenses aren't scared of the deep ball even a little bit. Corners playing zone will sit on those routes and pick them off. When defensive backs are doing that, there is literally no possible way to throw the ball that does not risk interception on a timing pattern like that. The only way to avoid risking an interception is simply not to throw that ball.

It's amazing when you watch a game and you see an offense throwing the deep vertical not because they think their receivers can get open and catch the thing, but really just because your QB has a good deep arm, good deep touch and accuracy, and you'll settle for the defense thinking about the deep vertical even if it isn't complete.

Matt Ryan suffered through a lot of drops at Boston College, too. Way more than his share. When you're throwing to guys that don't get separation (and at Boston College, they didn't), you've got to throw it to spots that are more difficult to catch just so that you don't get picked off. John Beck was able to get away with a lot of high floaters at BYU that Matt Ryan couldn't get away with at Boston College.

I don't see what is so controversial about calling him a taller, younger version of John Beck. That's pretty much how most of the scouting world thinks of him.

And btw, I don't think the cutoff for marginal returns on height stops at 6'2" by any means. More like 6'4" or 6'5". Really, 6'2" is considered more like a bare minimum. That doesn't mean most scouts would consider 6'2" and 6'4" guys to be equals.

Great Post,

I'd like to add that Beck also has a very low release point so even if he's 6'2 he's playing like someone much shorter.I'm sure they have been working with him on that.

My thinking is that, thats going to make or break him in the NFL.

 

[2413fanphins]

Is this the, let's debate Matt Ryan thread

NO it's the smart people who can honestly evaluate and break down a guys pros and cons, and the rest of us learn from it thread.


Ineveitably, there will soon be a poster who comes in and says something to the like of... ya but he didn't even throw many spirals indoors at his pro day, stay away from matt ryan post.

so far I like the honest dialogue that posters have given, both for and against matt ryan.

ck gives it to ya straight, and from his info, a lot of guys on here should now be able to have a better understanding of matt ryan.

good posting CK!!!

go phins!

 

[2413fanphins]

Great Post,

I'd like to add that Beck also has a very low release point so even if he's 6'2 he's playing like someone much shorter.I'm sure they have been working with him on that.

My thinking is that, thats going to make or break him in the NFL.

MTE.... something I have pondered all offseason.

time will tell. I don't think we will end up with ryan, but I hope we have a ace up our sleeve, I just don't see mccown being sucessful. here on anywhere.

 

[caneaddict]

Hey CK-

Question about the tackles. The more I've been thinking about your theory that it is possible the skill set for a Pro Bowl LT is shifting, the more it makes alot of sense. Even back in the day the old 3-4 defenses didn't seem to use the constant blitz and movement that today's 3-4's use. If LT is left less often on an island then yeah it would make sense that Ferguson's 1 on 1 pass blocking may not hold the value it has in the past. And Joe Thomas run blocking as well as ability to read defenses and better understand who to pick up and where the help is coming form may be more valuable. Having said that, Jake Long looks more and more appealing (I still want Chris). However if we decide that Jake Long is worth the pick then my next thought was to compare Jake to the other tackles.

See if we go DE/OLB hybrid then I really do value Chris over the other guys enough to warrant taking him #1. But if we are going LT then I have to start wondering about the value. Otah seems to have alot of the skills that you describe in Jake. Otah is big, can run block like a champ, and can do a fine job at pass protection. Is Jake worth that much more than Otah? In fact is he better at all? How do you compare the 2 guys? If we though we could get an Otah at #5 or below then would it make sense to just trade back straight up with no compensation if that's all that we can get because of the money difference? I don't expect anyone would ever trade back without getting SOMETHING, but theoretically would you think it would be worth it to go for Otah over Jake assuming we are going LT.

 

[ckparrothead]

Great Post,

I'd like to add that Beck also has a very low release point so even if he's 6'2 he's playing like someone much shorter.I'm sure they have been working with him on that.

My thinking is that, thats going to make or break him in the NFL.

David Lee worked with Tony Romo for an entire spring and summer on exactly that issue with the Cowboys, and it sounds to me like they are virtually replicating that experiment with John Beck.

Whether we take a QB is very much a race. John Beck has another month to convince the brain trust not to take Matt Ryan, and he may even convince them not to take a guy at #32 or #57. Beck's pattern is to work hard and exceed expectations. He's been doing exactly that for years. I expect him to continue doing that. Any coach that ever coached would love him because he takes what he does seriously, and works at it viciously, and thinks of many ways to work at things and get better that you didn't even tell him about.

I just don't think that we have to nail Matt Ryan to the cross just so that we can feel good about Beck. Just like I never thought we needed to do the same to Brady Quinn.

 

[fishypete]

David Lee worked with Tony Romo for an entire spring and summer on exactly that issue with the Cowboys, and it sounds to me like they are virtually replicating that experiment with John Beck.

Whether we take a QB is very much a race. John Beck has another month to convince the brain trust not to take Matt Ryan, and he may even convince them not to take a guy at #32 or #57. Beck's pattern is to work hard and exceed expectations. He's been doing exactly that for years. I expect him to continue doing that. Any coach that ever coached would love him because he takes what he does seriously, and works at it viciously, and thinks of many ways to work at things and get better that you didn't even tell him about.

I just don't think that we have to nail Matt Ryan to the cross just so that we can feel good about Beck. Just like I never thought we needed to do the same to Brady Quinn.

CK...I'm confused....what can Beck do in the off season to show the coaches he can play...in real games?

He's not being rushed....he's not throwing to real receivers...so please tell everyone what Beck can do other than gaining weight...to impress Parcells.

How do you wipe out all those bad memories from everyone's minds? The only way I can think of is on the field...in real games.

 

[ckparrothead]

Hey CK-

Question about the tackles. The more I've been thinking about your theory that it is possible the skill set for a Pro Bowl LT is shifting, the more it makes alot of sense. Even back in the day the old 3-4 defenses didn't seem to use the constant blitz and movement that today's 3-4's use. If LT is left less often on an island then yeah it would make sense that Ferguson's 1 on 1 pass blocking may not hold the value it has in the past. And Joe Thomas run blocking as well as ability to read defenses and better understand who to pick up and where the help is coming form may be more valuable. Having said that, Jake Long looks more and more appealing (I still want Chris). However if we decide that Jake Long is worth the pick then my next thought was to compare Jake to the other tackles.

See if we go DE/OLB hybrid then I really do value Chris over the other guys enough to warrant taking him #1. But if we are going LT then I have to start wondering about the value. Otah seems to have alot of the skills that you describe in Jake. Otah is big, can run block like a champ, and can do a fine job at pass protection. Is Jake worth that much more than Otah? In fact is he better at all? How do you compare the 2 guys? If we though we could get an Otah at #5 or below then would it make sense to just trade back straight up with no compensation if that's all that we can get because of the money difference? I don't expect anyone would ever trade back without getting SOMETHING, but theoretically would you think it would be worth it to go for Otah over Jake assuming we are going LT.

Whenever you really start thinking about a trade, you have to school yourself against it. Trades just don't happen. There seems to be this widely held believe that someone will come calling and that it happens every year. I was just having that argument with an uncle of mine yesterday. It isn't so. The phone doesn't ring. People don't want to pay a ton in draft picks just so they can move up and grab a guy that they now have to give a bigger contract than if they just stayed and took someone else. Unless, of course, you've got a super duper quarterback prospect...and right now I'd say Matt Ryan falls short, especially after a pro day that drew mixed reviews instead of orgasms.

As for Jeff Otah, he is, in my opinion, near opposite of Jake Long. He is the best pass protector in this draft. He is a throwback compared with what I've been talking about the skill set for the position morphing a little. You can put Otah on an island against a high quality DE and trust him to shut that guy down for most of the game. That's what I feel.

Can you trust him against the blitz? I don't know. In college, he was a good run blocker because of the unnatural power in his arms, his steady and wide base, and his long arms. But, he doesn't have the feet that a Jake Long has in terms of getting out there and locking onto fast-moving targets. He certainly has the strength and base to be a great run blocker, and I think he has the attitude, but he needs better mobility and technique...especially cut blocking.

The best run blocker in this draft is Jake Long. The best pass protector is Jeff Otah. The quickest feet belong to either Ryan Clady or Jake Long. The best strength belongs to Otah (although Jake Long is close). The best balance belongs to Otah (low marks in this category for Jake Long). The smartest is probably Jake Long or Chris Williams (lower marks for Otah).

 

[ckparrothead]

CK...I'm confused....what can Beck do in the off season to show the coaches he can play...in real games?

He's not being rushed....he's not throwing to real receivers...so please tell everyone what Beck can do other than gaining weight...to impress Parcells.

How do you wipe out all those bad memories from everyone's minds? The only way I can think of is on the field...in real games.

You play how you practice. You may choose to think that throwing over 3500 passes with your position coach, working on your form and accuracy, will show the coaches "nothing". I choose to believe the truth, that it will show them something.

 

[funkDat]

David Lee worked with Tony Romo for an entire spring and summer on exactly that issue with the Cowboys, and it sounds to me like they are virtually replicating that experiment with John Beck.

Whether we take a QB is very much a race. John Beck has another month to convince the brain trust not to take Matt Ryan, and he may even convince them not to take a guy at #32 or #57. Beck's pattern is to work hard and exceed expectations. He's been doing exactly that for years. I expect him to continue doing that. Any coach that ever coached would love him because he takes what he does seriously, and works at it viciously, and thinks of many ways to work at things and get better that you didn't even tell him about.

I just don't think that we have to nail Matt Ryan to the cross just so that we can feel good about Beck. Just like I never thought we needed to do the same to Brady Quinn.

yep , again good post.

I like Beck, and hope he can fix that part of his game, cuzz it would be nice to not have to pick up a QB with one of the 1st 3 picks.

It's just not an easy thing Beck is trying to do right now.In a very real since it's like Tiger changing his swing, and well it just takes time.

 

[fishypete]

You play how you practice. You may choose to think that throwing over 3500 passes with your position coach, working on your form and accuracy, will show the coaches "nothing". I choose to believe the truth, that it will show them something.

The only thing I can see it can possibly show anyone is that he can throw....but it doen't show what a player can do when he's under fire. Beck's problem wasn't that he couldn't throw...well most of the time anyway..LOL...it's how he reacted during the games. You can train a hunting dog to not react to the sound of the gun...but you can't make him hunt...that has to be in the Dog.

 

[Fin-Fan-13]

The only thing I can see it can possibly show anyone is that he can throw....but it doen't show what a player can do when he's under fire. Beck's problem wasn't that he couldn't throw...well most of the time anyway..LOL...it's how he reacted during the games. You can train a hunting dog to not react to the sound of the gun...but you can't make him hunt...that has to be in the Dog.

IMO, he could in college and showed it well. I expect he is showing the coaches that he can in the pros. Just needs a team around him. My guess is that is what they will do through the draft and relegate drafting another QB till more of the wholes are filled.

To be honest, none of the QBs last year really showed a great deal and Beck was a rookie to boot.

 

[fishypete]

IMO, he could in college and showed it well. I expect he is showing the coaches that he can in the pros. Just needs a team around him. My guess is that is what they will do through the draft and relegate drafting another QB till more of the wholes are filled.

To be honest, none of the QBs last year really showed a great deal and Beck was a rookie to boot.

I'm not against Beck...but he has to show alot more as far as I'm concerned....to be the "guy"...for the future. Not all rookies play great their first time out....but some do show they belong...again...Beck hasn't done that. To me it's more important what a QB shows when times are ruff...then when good.

 

[funkDat]

I'm not against Beck...but he has to show alot more as far as I'm concerned....to be the "guy"...for the future. Not all rookies play great their first time out....but some do show they belong...again...Beck hasn't done that. To me it's more important what a QB shows when times are ruff...then when good.

Yup , i feel ya.

I'm sure BP,JI,TS have all had the same thoughts as you 100 of times.I think even if they are sold on Beck, they still have to take one of the top 3 QB's in the draft.Otherwise they are setting there self up to fail and i'm betting:hi5::beer1: thats over with in Miami.

 

[Fin-Fan-13]

I'm not against Beck...but he has to show alot more as far as I'm concerned....to be the "guy"...for the future. Not all rookies play great their first time out....but some do show they belong...again...Beck hasn't done that. To me it's more important what a QB shows when times are ruff...then when good.

True.

However, any QB in this draft has shown even less at the NFL level. They may succeed or may be a bust. However, if the Dolphins don't provide a better team for whomever the QB is, it won't matter much. Green and Lemon combined for 1 win last year. The team was bad.

I fully expect and hope the Phins pick up a young QB at some point this year. But unless they can solidify the OL and provide better receiving weapons, we will stink again.

I expect great things out of this coaching staff and they will make the best decisions for this team. If that is drafting another QB at #1 or #32, then that is what they will do.

However, based on what I hear and read, it wouldn't surprise me if a young QB is drafted in round 3 at the earliest.

 

[caneaddict]

Whenever you really start thinking about a trade, you have to school yourself against it. Trades just don't happen. There seems to be this widely held believe that someone will come calling and that it happens every year. I was just having that argument with an uncle of mine yesterday. It isn't so. The phone doesn't ring. People don't want to pay a ton in draft picks just so they can move up and grab a guy that they now have to give a bigger contract than if they just stayed and took someone else. Unless, of course, you've got a super duper quarterback prospect...and right now I'd say Matt Ryan falls short, especially after a pro day that drew mixed reviews instead of orgasms.

As for Jeff Otah, he is, in my opinion, near opposite of Jake Long. He is the best pass protector in this draft. He is a throwback compared with what I've been talking about the skill set for the position morphing a little. You can put Otah on an island against a high quality DE and trust him to shut that guy down for most of the game. That's what I feel.

Can you trust him against the blitz? I don't know. In college, he was a good run blocker because of the unnatural power in his arms, his steady and wide base, and his long arms. But, he doesn't have the feet that a Jake Long has in terms of getting out there and locking onto fast-moving targets. He certainly has the strength and base to be a great run blocker, and I think he has the attitude, but he needs better mobility and technique...especially cut blocking.

The best run blocker in this draft is Jake Long. The best pass protector is Jeff Otah. The quickest feet belong to either Ryan Clady or Jake Long. The best strength belongs to Otah (although Jake Long is close). The best balance belongs to Otah (low marks in this category for Jake Long). The smartest is probably Jake Long or Chris Williams (lower marks for Otah).

I know that it's tough to trade and you can't assume someone will do it. That's the reason in my post I mentioned a straight up trade. I'm assuming that no one wants to trade into #1. However, I'm also sure that if Parcells stood up tommorrow and said he's willing to trade the #1 straight up for a pick in the top 10 with nothing else needed, the phone would certainly be ringing. Obviously I don;t think we would do that. But looking at value, I'm asking who do you value more, Otah or Long? If we did a theoretical drop 5 -10 spots (WITHOUT GETTING ANYTHING ELSE IN RETURN), would a Otah at the salary of a #5 pick be better than a Long with a #1 salary? I know this is theory but I'm just using it to get some perspective on value.

Thanks for answering CK I appreciate your input.