X Trade Offer Super Thread

[fin415]

I have been critical of Tua and will remain so. What you fail to realize is that I've also said that if he's the QB he has this year to either fish or cut bait.

The rest of your post about Jones being on part with Howard doesn't even warrant a response further than this.

I find your stance on Jones confusing. If he was as bad as you say, then ½ the OCs in the NFL need to be fired for throwing to X’s side given he’s a top 3 CB coupled with a crazy good ball hawk. After all, he didn’t get to 10 INTs by being avoided, like Deon was in his heyday.

Then again, maybe they know something you don’t?

 

[ANUFan]

Keep Xavian Howard and trade Byron Jones. Why the hell would you trade a proven corner who produces and keep another who doesn't. They traded Minka FitzPatrick who turned out pretty good for the Steelers. Granted he wanted out, but this is different. Howard wants paid and I say pay the man and trade Jones and pay part of his salary.

Really? Minka? Let it go for crying out loud or just take this act to the Steelers forum where you can follow said player.

 

[GRYPHONK]

I find your stance on Jones confusing. If he was as bad as you say, then ½ the OCs in the NFL need to be fired for throwing to X’s side given he’s a top 3 CB coupled with a crazy good ball hawk. After all, he didn’t get to 10 INTs by being avoided, like Deon was in his heyday.

Then again, maybe they know something you don’t?

Lol exactly.

Howard was targeted alot more then Jones last season.

In fairness, Howard was absolutely far superior.

But for some reason teams attacked Howard more then Jones

 

[DOLFAN_51]

Well, maybe on face value sure.

But when you look at actual numbers not so much.

Since Howard has decided to tell the world Byron Jones was overpaid and he deserves more money than him. Let's compare the two from 2016-2019. I don't count 2020 because Howard's beef was them making Jones a higher paid CB prior to last season. So this is to see if Howard has. Legitimate gripe.

Jones- 63 games played
Howard- 39 games played

Jones- Targeted 270 times
Howard- 210 times

During that time

Jones- targeted 4.3 times a game
Howard- targeted 5.3 times a game

During that time, it's clear teams targeted Howard more implying QBS stayed away from Jones more. Remember, this is also with Jones playing 24 more games which actually makes his stats that more impressive.

Jones- 160 catches allowed
Howard- 116 catches allowed

Jones- 59% completion against
Howard- 54% completion against.

That one is a slight victory to Howard.

Now to dispel the "red flag" comment.

Jones- 219 tackles
Howard- 116

Jones- 59 more tackles than receptions allowed.
Howard- 5 more tackles than receptions allowed.

You say red flag, others can say he is always around the ball and is more complete player. He doesn't just cover WRS like Howard. All Howard does is cover, he seems to not be involved unless it's his guy.

So far looks to me like they are pretty equal. Jones actually statistically was more reliable and a more overall player.

If Howard was a shut down corner, Jones was too. It wasn't a "single" very good season.

With all that said, Howard was CLEARLY the better playmaker.

Jones- 4 total turnovers caused
Howard- 13 total turnovers caused

Impressive considering 24 less games.

So in essence, the team paid a CB with similar "shut down" numbers, stats and capability, who on average, played 5 + more games a season, but was not the playmaker as Howard.

Levi Wallace? He appeared to be on Howard's level, minus the play making ability, but slightly superior in almost every other category.

I don’t know where to begin to tell how wrong you are. OC’s don’t throw against players, they throw against coverage. Which is why the best CB’s in the league usually have more targets than any other CB on their team. They can do it alone. Without help. In 2019 Gilmore saw 101 targets vs Mcourty’s 53. That must mean we made the signing in the history of the league because he’s better than Gilmore. Second, you left off last years stats. Which makes it pretty obvious that you are trying to cover up the deficiencies in your argument. Last year Jones was targeted 30 fewer times and allowed 8 fewer receptions. But he allowed more yards, tds, a higher completion percentage, yds per target, yards per completion, and had a much higher QB rating against (108 vs 48).

Also, X had his hands on 30% of the passes thrown his way. His average of 18.7% for his career is the highest in the league during that span. 30% is beyond astounding. Gilmore hit 26% during his DPOY season in 2019. Jones had broken up or picked off only 9% of his targets. You can say that Jones is a solid starter. But you cannot say that Jones made X have a better season because that isn’t even close reality.

 

[GRYPHONK]

I don’t know where to begin to tell how wrong you are. OC’s don’t throw against players, they throw against coverage. Which is why the best CB’s in the league usually have more targets than any other CB on their team. They can do it alone. Without help. In 2019 Gilmore saw 101 targets vs Mcourty’s 53. That must mean we made the signing in the history of the league because he’s better than Gilmore. Second, you left off last years stats. Which makes it pretty obvious that you are trying to cover up the deficiencies in your argument. Last year Jones was targeted 30 fewer times and allowed 8 fewer receptions. But he allowed more yards, tds, a higher completion percentage, yds per target, yards per completion, and had a much higher QB rating against (108 vs 48).

Also, X had his hands on 30% of the passes thrown his way. His average of 18.7% for his career is the highest in the league during that span. 30% is beyond astounding. Gilmore hit 26% during his DPOY season in 2019. Jones had broken up or picked off only 9% of his targets. You can say that Jones is a solid starter. But you cannot say that Jones made X have a better season because that isn’t even close reality.

I appreciate your response.

However I very clearly explained why last year was left off. I have also very clearly stated Howard was superior. I also very clearly stated I was comparing the years prior, because Howard didn't get upset after the season. The signing and Jones contract upset Howard from the beginning. So comparison was only necessary to understand Howard's beef.

Also, before talking about how wrong I am. You need to first realizing what I was responding to.

If you do, then you would realize your argument really is more for the OP of this debate.

I am pretty clear with my points and what I say. Maybe it's because of my job.

However, I NEVER stated Jones made X have a better season.

 

[nick1]

Crazy stupid stuff I’m seeing trade Jones? You do know Jones is just as good as Howard. In fact he’s targeted less which means QBs believe Jones is better

 

[royalshank]

That trade worked out just fine for Miami in the end, and the ripple effects of this trade are ridiculous.

At the time, the Eagles sent Miami Alonso and Byron Maxwell to move up from 13 to 8 in the 2016 draft. This was their first step in acquiring Carson Wentz.

As of today, that trade resulted in:

EAGLES:

2021 third round pick (traded to the Cowboys to move up from #12 to #10 overall in the 2021 draft)
2022 conditional 2nd round pick

Note - to finish the acquisition of Wentz, the Eagles also gave up:

The 2016 #8 overall pick, - this ended up being Jack Conklin
Their 2017 first round pick - #12 overall - this ended up becoming DeShaun Watson.
Their 2018 second-round pick - #64 overall - this ended up being Tyquan Lewis.

They did also acquire a 2017 fifth rounder from Cleveland) - this ended up being (I think) Troy Fumagalli, who recently signed with New England.

DOLPHINS:

Noah Igbinoghene
2020 pick 136 (traded to Houston to move up for Solomon Kindley)
Vince Biegel
The remainder of the bounty from the Tunsil Trade (2022 SF 1st round pick, 2022 3rd round pick, 2023 1st round pick)


The Eagles won the Super Bowl in 2017, but it sure as hell wasn't because of this trade.

They won the SB because of Nick Foles. Had Carson Wentz played they may not have even made it. Foles pitched a perfect game and he had to. There was no margin for error in that one. Hard to imagine Wentz playing as well, or anyone. It was really crazy. Byron Maxwell sucked eggs here.

 

[royalshank]

Crazy stupid stuff I’m seeing trade Jones? You do know Jones is just as good as Howard. In fact he’s targeted less which means QBs believe Jones is better

Jones isn’t in Howard’s league. See stats above.

 

[DOLFAN_51]

I appreciate your response.

However I very clearly explained why last year was left off. I have also very clearly stated Howard was superior. I also very clearly stated I was comparing the years prior, because Howard didn't get upset after the season. The signing and Jones contract upset Howard from the beginning. So comparison was only necessary to understand Howard's beef.

Also, before talking about how wrong I am. You need to first realizing what I was responding to.

If you do, then you would realize your argument really is more for the OP of this debate.

I am pretty clear with my points and what I say. Maybe it's because of my job.

However, I NEVER stated Jones made X have a better season.

My bad. Lol

I misunderstood the post. I’ve read posts where people have made the argument that X only grabbed those Int’s because teams avoided Jones. And I disagree with that argument.

 

[GRYPHONK]

My bad. Lol

I misunderstood the post. I’ve read posts where people have made the argument that X only grabbed those Int’s because teams avoided Jones. And I disagree with that argument.

No problem it happens.

I agree completely. Howard's success had nothing to do with Jones.

Howard got those INTS because he us a flat out playmaker

 

[Feverdream]

Lol exactly.

Howard was targeted alot more then Jones last season.

In fairness, Howard was absolutely far superior.

But for some reason teams attacked Howard more then Jones

Because Jones was generally closer to his man than Howard was.

It's a double edged sword... throw at Jones who is in tight coverage (but does not get many picks), or throw at Howard who is farther off of his man, but has better recovery and hands.

The fact that Jones had his man mostly blanketed made Howard's season. If he goes to a team with an average second corner, his INTs will fall waaay off, because he won't be targeted.

 

[GRYPHONK]

Because Jones was generally closer to his man than Howard was.

It's a double edged sword... throw at Jones who is in tight coverage (but does not get many picks), or throw at Howard who is farther off of his man, but has better recovery and hands.

The fact that Jones had his man mostly blanketed made Howard's season. If he goes to a team with an average second corner, his INTs will fall waaay off, because he won't be targeted.

Huh, interesting.

Didn't really think of it that way. It does make sense.

It also doesn't take away that Howard was a playmaker. It just adds more context.

 

[fin415]

Jones isn’t in Howard’s league. See stats above.

Somewhere between the numbers the Finheaven arm chair coaches are throwing around and the film room, there is a disconnect. Because the guy everyone here keeps telling me is second rate compared to X isn't being attacked and exploited as a weakness. Instead other teams are still trying to throw against the statically elite CB that is wracking up game changing interceptions at a historic rate.

 

[artdnj]

X balled out last season, highlight reel picks and all around beastly play. That being said, the latest issues surrounding X is in know way a cause of the Dolphins, it’s all on him.

 

[GeauxFins2020]

First of all, I don’t think they should renegotiate his contract but if they do and he is injured, that’s football. I don’t think he has anymore risk of injury if they renegotiate his contract or not. If teams worried about paying a player a great deal of money because they were concerned a high priced player would get hurt and unable to play. There would be no high priced players in the league to begin with.

Right.

So same logic as to him signing a contract and in a few years people getting more money. That's football.